More made up stuff. Non-gender conforming people have existed since the beginning of humanity.
Citations needed and when I say citations, I mean thousands of verifiable ones over a hundred years old as I stated. If you can't do that then you are just making assumptions.
Citations needed and when I say citations, I mean thousands of verifiable ones over a hundred years old as I stated. If you can't do that then you are just making assumptions.
No humanities scholar with a real education or integrity would claim that people living in Ancient Mesopotamia were "trans" or "nonbinary." These are recent cultural categories. If you talked to somebody even 30 years ago, they'd have no idea what "nonbinary" means.
conservatives screw up 3 ways here. first, you're neglecting the same school districts allow the kids to live their reality 7 hours of the school day before you start wanting to butt in for the sports part. they dress as girls, are referred to as girls, go to the bathroom as though one, etc. you then want to pout about sports. you're 7 hours late, dude. catch up. they have been a girl for school purposes since 7 am.
second, you resist efforts to reconfigure things at two levels.
(a) it's gotta be 2 boxes and not 3 with a nonbinary or open box
(b) it's gotta be the traditional understanding of 2 boxes.
re the 3rd box, it's the solution. the deal is in "traditional" times wheelchair johnny did not compete, trans tina was either closeted or excluded, and special olympics sal is off in a separate event someplace. times have changed, we have kids wanting to mainstream, it's time for an open 3rd category with special olympics, trans, wheelchairs, and maybe even JV kids who want to step up to varsity in a non-traditional category.
here's the deal. buried beneath the bull patties is you want them not just out of sports but browbeaten back into what they were. this is over. times have changed. you conservatives need some sort of progressive solution other than "back in the closet." to me the way that makes the participants happy without conservative crybabying is a 3rd category.
and the reality is, when i look at my area meet, maybe 1 kid in the whole meet signs up wheelchair. maybe 1 kid signs up 3rd category locally or even in the whole state. it's not some crisis for 1 trans kid in a state to compete in the whole track system in an event or two out of all classes, both genders. i am offering you 3 boxes to indulge you somewhat. if you want to insist you can watch this keep happening, as it's the progressive, dignity-affirming response to your own insistence on 2 boxes.
To address your arguments, as a woman who is not 'conservative':
"they dress as girls" It's sexist and stereotypical to say that dressing a certain way makes one a girl.
"they are referred to as girls": In most cases, only because people are being polite or are being compelled to refer to boys as girls. They don't actually believe it.
"they go to the bathroom as one":...unless they're peeing out of a female urethra they quite literally do not.
"they have been a girl for school purposes": No. They have not been a girl for one second. Do you know how it actually feels to be a girl? The actual physical existence of being a high school girl, dealing with periods, developing breasts and hips, maybe issues from hormonal birth control?
"you conservatives need some sort of solution other than 'back in the closet'": The solution is completely obvious and 'conservatives' are not the ones struggling to see it. People can 'identify' however they wish but it does not make them what they wish to be. A boy is perfectly free to 'identify' as a girl, just as everyone has a right to their personal beliefs. They don't have the right to force others to cater to those beliefs however. Identify however you wish, but compete with your sex because that is reality, where the rest of us live.
I'm always glad when another woman shows up on these threads to counter some of the regressive sexism expressed by the blokes. Particularly the regressive sexism of fellas like VIT who hold themselves up as enlightened and progressive, yet who express views so male-centrist and male-supremacist that they would have been called "male chauvinists" in the the 60s and 70s.
But I hope you won't mind me adding to the excellent point you made "about how it actually feels to be a girl" by making a small clarification for the benefit of all the LRC readers and posters who don't have a clue about what it's like to grow up female.
The experiences you mentioned as hallmarks of "the actual physical existence of being a high school girl" such as "dealing with periods, developing breasts and hips" are actually things that most girls have to cope with in middle school as well as high school. Some girls even have to deal with breast development and periods in lower school.
After all, the normal age for female puberty to start is 8-13, although some pediatricians nowadays say it's common and normal for girls to start at 7.
At any rate, most girls begin breast development when they are 10 or younger, and get their periods when they are 12. But some girls start even earlier. I have friends who had obvious breasts at 8 and started their periods at 9. I started my period the week I turned 11.
It's because so many girls develop much earlier than most blokes realize that the law in the UK says that schools must provide female and male students with sex-separate toilets and changing facilities starting at age 8.
Sexual harassment of girls by boys in MS, HS and even LS is already so rife that it's a regular weekly or even daily occurrence for many pre-teen and teenage girls. From my experience as a former girl and as a mother, I think sexual harassment of girls by boys in schools really ramps up starting in 4th, 5th and 6th grades.
Policies that force school girls in MS and HS to have to put up with boys who claim to "identify as" girls joining girls' sports teams, using girls' toilets and locker rooms, bunking with girls on overnight trips, demanding to be included in programs meant for girls such as health classes about menstruation, ovulation and the female hormone cycle - and getting the chance to trounce female athletes in sports competitions that are supposed to be for girls - have created new male forms of "male privilege" for boys who claim to be "trans" and "gender diverse." These policies give supposedly "gender special" boys a free pass to engage in new forms of male bullying and sexual harrassment of actual girls.
But the kicker is, the boys who are demanding and being granted these new forms of "male privilege" that no one else of their sex gets, nor are other males asking for, don't realize how entitled, pushy, selfish, sexist and "typically male" their behavior makes them seem in the eyes of many others. Nor do they realize that many of girls they're horning in on resent and dislike them - and are really put off by their entitlement, intrusiveness, arrogance and blatant, shallow sexism. These supposedly special boys also don't realize that some girls are creeped out by them.
But instead of being helped to see and accept the truth, the boys who claim to have special gender identities nowadays are being told by their parents, coaches, teachers and trans campaigners that they are most marginalized, oppressed, put-upon, victimized people ever to walk the earth. As a result, most of these boys really seem to believe in their heart of hearts that they should always get their way, no matter how negatively it impacts others.
I'm 50. I've known about non-binary people since I was 12. Just because we have a modern term like "non-binary" doesn't mean that the category of "non-binary" people didnt exist by other words prior to the term.
referring to my position as "regressive sexism" is some orwellian bull hockey akin to the folks on here saying they are compassionate friends of trans people by saying they should be denied care and treated as mentally ill. it works as strident unthinking trumpist rhetoric in an era less concerned with honesty and accuracy. it's balderdash on any educated scrutiny. what next, call anyone supporting this "groomers?"
you're saying unless i defend traditional notions of gender i am sexist and pro-male which makes my brain lobes pretzel to the point they hurt. sexism normally understood is promoting the idea women are different and weaker. need protection. buried within that is saying letting a boy be trans is letting men dominate women. that's what you're really saying. that's acting like women are weak and need protection. and odds are it's a dude asking for it.
spare us the half hour "mansplaining" lecture and cut to your real chase.
I'm 50. I've known about non-binary people since I was 12. Just because we have a modern term like "non-binary" doesn't mean that the category of "non-binary" people didnt exist by other words prior to the term.
The term trans doesn't even mean the same thing as it did when you were 12. It's doubtful that there was a word that meant the same thing as "nonbinary" in 1980. Most of the modern gender stuff is informed by queer theory, which didn't really take off until the '90s.
No humanities scholar with a real education or integrity would claim that people living in Ancient Mesopotamia were "trans" or "nonbinary." These are recent cultural categories. If you talked to somebody even 30 years ago, they'd have no idea what "nonbinary" means.
Wrong. People expressing as different from their sex as well as people with multiple or indeterminate gender expressions have always been recognized.
to underline the inconsistency and insincerity of such arguments, no one on this thread has beefed about women who present as men, or women who compete in male sports.
in terms of what is supposedly "regressive," when women play with boys, women's teams tend to get started up so that more women can play. women's soccer, softball, flag football. in contrast, when this malarkey starts up, conservative start pulling the kids, reduce participation, or even put their kids in religious environment s which often narrowly channel femininity.
but you were busy lecturing me about how people like me hurt opportunity. i guess we're going to ignore where i proposed a third category to get even more students involved in TF.
I'm 50. I've known about non-binary people since I was 12. Just because we have a modern term like "non-binary" doesn't mean that the category of "non-binary" people didnt exist by other words prior to the term.
The term trans doesn't even mean the same thing as it did when you were 12. It's doubtful that there was a word that meant the same thing as "nonbinary" in 1980. Most of the modern gender stuff is informed by queer theory, which didn't really take off until the '90s.
The absence of the word doesn't mean there weren't people (for all of history) who would fit the modern definition of "trans."
Your posts suggest this completely incorrect idea that the modern "trans" movement is a new thing brought about by "libs." It isn't.
Because gender is a construct, there have always been individuals who did not fit into a binary definition. In many ancient cultures (and even some more.modern ones), those non-binary people were revered. Alas, phony conservatives (i.e. modern Republicans), have made this some culture war bs.
The term trans doesn't even mean the same thing as it did when you were 12. It's doubtful that there was a word that meant the same thing as "nonbinary" in 1980. Most of the modern gender stuff is informed by queer theory, which didn't really take off until the '90s.
The absence of the word doesn't mean there weren't people (for all of history) who would fit the modern definition of "trans."
Your posts suggest this completely incorrect idea that the modern "trans" movement is a new thing brought about by "libs." It isn't.
Because gender is a construct, there have always been individuals who did not fit into a binary definition. In many ancient cultures (and even some more.modern ones), those non-binary people were revered. Alas, phony conservatives (i.e. modern Republicans), have made this some culture war bs.
I've said it before on these threads, and I'll say it again: trans and nonbinary are cultural categories, which means they are context-bound. They are ways of making sense of identity within particular geographic areas at particular points in history. Therefore, we cannot apply today's identity labels to groups of people who live in other places and at other times. Even today, people who might look to the American eye to be "trans" laugh at Western ways of understanding people who do not conform to cultural norms for their sex.
In fact, "trans" today is increasingly not about sex and gender at all; we might more aptly characterize the phenomenon as transhumanism.
Most of the people on these threads know perfectly well that different societies create different norms and expectations for males and females, and some include multiple different ways of being male or female. None of this is remotely the same thing as contemporary gender theories and queer theory, in part because these modern theories are a response to Enlightenment knowledge. BTW: all of the "culture war BS" is ultimately about liberalism and Enlightenment principles, not about Democrats and Republicans. The reason why so many people on the right and left are opposed to things like males participating in female sports or being forced to say that males are girls or women is that they accept Enlightenment reason and its commitment to truth over doctrine. This mode of reasoning is being challenged by ideological zealots on the right and left. With the gender stuff, it's mostly coming from the left.
This is what happens when the hard left doesn’t get shut down.
This isn’t a women’s rights issue or a sports issue. We’ve allowed it to *become* both those things because we conceded the concept of ‘gender’ to Communists.
Men are not women. Women are not men. This is fundamental material reality. Just tell these flat-earthers to get in the bin.
This is what happens when the hard left doesn’t get shut down.
This isn’t a women’s rights issue or a sports issue. We’ve allowed it to *become* both those things because we conceded the concept of ‘gender’ to Communists.
Men are not women. Women are not men. This is fundamental material reality. Just tell these flat-earthers to get in the bin.
Same as “Boys are boys. Girls are girls. Period.”.
i always note the tone and tactics of would be thought leaders, because it can eventually be turned around on you. i have noted the bullying and slurring tone of many anti-trans folks. they never take my compromise. they rip me personally. they bend reality. ergo i don't trust you to lead anything. independent of the politics and specifics.
this is not intended to be solved. this is intended to be a burr in saddles that gets argued about, or voted on 51-49 with everyone involved upset.
to me good governance is willingness to compromise and try and make everyone happy. is trying to dignify all. i do not see dignifying of trans people in your approach. i do not see any effort to bring in other excluded groups like para-athletes, special olympics, and such. this is bullies who don't care who they hurt, wanting to motivate their base, and to either just continue "crises" forever or impose nasty 51-49 or 5-4/6-3 responses that are only democracy in the loosest sense.
i think the whole supposed crisis is fake. it's usually 1-2 kids in the whole state, in all grades, in all classes from small town to big city, in all events, in both genders. this is not some inundation. this doesn't merit the response other than as purist bullying or power politics or some algorithm has identified this as the lever to push to get people to vote. i don't think this helps society to be better, and by showing no interest in compromise, i don't think you have any interest in maximizing happiness but instead increasing anger.
This is what happens when the hard left doesn’t get shut down.
This isn’t a women’s rights issue or a sports issue. We’ve allowed it to *become* both those things because we conceded the concept of ‘gender’ to Communists.
Men are not women. Women are not men. This is fundamental material reality. Just tell these flat-earthers to get in the bin.
Please tell us the rules of being a "man" or "woman" and how those rules should be enforced?
conservatives screw up 3 ways here. first, you're neglecting the same school districts allow the kids to live their reality 7 hours of the school day before you start wanting to butt in for the sports part. they dress as girls, are referred to as girls, go to the bathroom as though one, etc. you then want to pout about sports. you're 7 hours late, dude. catch up. they have been a girl for school purposes since 7 am.
second, you resist efforts to reconfigure things at two levels.
(a) it's gotta be 2 boxes and not 3 with a nonbinary or open box
(b) it's gotta be the traditional understanding of 2 boxes.
re the 3rd box, it's the solution. the deal is in "traditional" times wheelchair johnny did not compete, trans tina was either closeted or excluded, and special olympics sal is off in a separate event someplace. times have changed, we have kids wanting to mainstream, it's time for an open 3rd category with special olympics, trans, wheelchairs, and maybe even JV kids who want to step up to varsity in a non-traditional category.
here's the deal. buried beneath the bull patties is you want them not just out of sports but browbeaten back into what they were. this is over. times have changed. you conservatives need some sort of progressive solution other than "back in the closet." to me the way that makes the participants happy without conservative crybabying is a 3rd category.
and the reality is, when i look at my area meet, maybe 1 kid in the whole meet signs up wheelchair. maybe 1 kid signs up 3rd category locally or even in the whole state. it's not some crisis for 1 trans kid in a state to compete in the whole track system in an event or two out of all classes, both genders. i am offering you 3 boxes to indulge you somewhat. if you want to insist you can watch this keep happening, as it's the progressive, dignity-affirming response to your own insistence on 2 boxes.
This is what happens when the hard left doesn’t get shut down.
This isn’t a women’s rights issue or a sports issue. We’ve allowed it to *become* both those things because we conceded the concept of ‘gender’ to Communists.
Men are not women. Women are not men. This is fundamental material reality. Just tell these flat-earthers to get in the bin.
Please tell us the rules of being a "man" or "woman" and how those rules should be enforced?
There are no rules.
It’s a biological category. Gender is just your personality.
Society is structured around biological characteristics, not subjective beliefs.
i always note the tone and tactics of would be thought leaders, because it can eventually be turned around on you. i have noted the bullying and slurring tone of many anti-trans folks. they never take my compromise. they rip me personally. they bend reality. ergo i don't trust you to lead anything. independent of the politics and specifics.
this is not intended to be solved. this is intended to be a burr in saddles that gets argued about, or voted on 51-49 with everyone involved upset.
to me good governance is willingness to compromise and try and make everyone happy. is trying to dignify all. i do not see dignifying of trans people in your approach. i do not see any effort to bring in other excluded groups like para-athletes, special olympics, and such. this is bullies who don't care who they hurt, wanting to motivate their base, and to either just continue "crises" forever or impose nasty 51-49 or 5-4/6-3 responses that are only democracy in the loosest sense.
i think the whole supposed crisis is fake. it's usually 1-2 kids in the whole state, in all grades, in all classes from small town to big city, in all events, in both genders. this is not some inundation. this doesn't merit the response other than as purist bullying or power politics or some algorithm has identified this as the lever to push to get people to vote. i don't think this helps society to be better, and by showing no interest in compromise, i don't think you have any interest in maximizing happiness but instead increasing anger.
You can’t compromise on this point. It’s a zero sum argument. You can’t make ‘everyone happy’.
You have competing rights. Those of female athletes versus those of men that want to be treated as if they are female.
It’s a biological category. Gender is just your personality.
Society is structured around biological characteristics, not subjective beliefs.
Society is not structured around biology.
So, everyone is free to express their personality as they see fit? Is that cool?
Of course it is.
From your schooling, your sports, every changing room and private space in the public sphere, your legal status, your work rights, your pension age, your rights over children, your insurance premiums, your status in the military, your life expectancy - all based on biological characteristics.
You can express your personality any way you see fit.
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
So, everyone is free to express their personality as they see fit? Is that cool?
Of course it is.
From your schooling, your sports, every changing room and private space in the public sphere, your legal status, your work rights, your pension age, your rights over children, your insurance premiums, your status in the military, your life expectancy - all based on biological characteristics.
You can express your personality any way you see fit.
God, this is incorrect. But as long as you think a biological male can express his feminine personality as they see fit, we are good
