Anti-trans or just facing reality?

But they are not XX or XY. So they don't belong to either division, according to alpha. He is trying to erase people with DSD because their existence makes him uncomfortable.

Moreover, people like Maria Jose Martinez Patino would be forced to compete against men under alpha's scheme.

Don't be a drama queen. He is not "erasing" people.

It is not difficult to put people with DSD in a category, based on the presence of a Y chromosome and testes or ovaries.

XO: female (because no Y chromosome and has ovaries)

XXY: male (because Y chromosome and has testes)

5alfa reductase deficiency (Castor Semenya and other intersex athletes with the same condition) : male (because they have a Y chromosome and testes)

Moderate, here. I think it is fully possible to be anti-biogical males in female sports and not anti-trans humans. This position describes my entire moderate/liberal family and friend group, but almost none of those people would argue their position in public for fear of being proclaimed a bigot. Most of these same people have no interest in why people are trans (nature or nurture) nor do they think that trans people should be treated differently than anybody else, better or worse. It is healthy indifference, with the foundational belief that humans are complicated and we don't have all the answers.

While I could be completely wrong about this, and won't pretend to know everything about the Brojos, the tone on this site, when discussing the issue of trans athletes feels like thinly veiled hate. Even if I agree with the general position expressed in the writing of the Brojos on the matter, the subtext seems to be that trans people shouldn't exist or that they are fair targets for discrimination. I'm not down with that, if it is the Letsrun position.

Not trying to erase DSD people. XO compete against XX and XXY compete against XY. It's not that difficult.

That still does not solve the issue of XY females who have been allowed to compete in the women's category for decades.

If XX and XY categories are created, it will be immediately sued by someone with CAIS (who has Y chromosome and testes), and you will definitely lose in the court. Of course, that's exactly what groups like Alliance Defending Freedom and Mom for Liberty want because they can raise more money for their M@G@ candidates. Brojos would also love that outcome because they could start another thread and generate more clicks from outraged rightwingers.

But would it do anything to "save women's sports"? Why hasn't women's sports been destroyed by people like Martinez Patino for three decades? And why would anyone expect it will start happening now?

You might want to read up the meaning of words in eligibility documents put forth by the governing body of the sport you like to cover. They define “Transgender Female” very clearly. They use “female” and “woman” interchangeably at many places.

So yes, there is no problem calling it the male and female division because that is what they already are called, but you seem unaware.

Much of “this” is not just about what words mean. They are about the well being of real people in society that have naturally existed in the population forever.

You are absolutely correct about the transphobia on this site, but incorrect that it is thinly veiled because it is rather girthily discharged all in the open.

I'm not convinced any of the people crusading against trans women in women's sports are concerned about women's rights at all (in fact, the same people probably do nothing but mock any other feminist issue). However, I don't think it's anti-trans to acknowledge that trans women and cis women aren't exactly the same. Although insisting on referring to trans women as 'biological males' probably is anti-trans when it's not done out of ignorance. Hormones are a part of biology, taking them has biological effects. Whether all of the differences between cis men and women can be accounted for simply by taking hormones is a different question (and honestly, I think it's kind of interesting and wish people would take it more seriously instead of turning it into culture war nonsense). I do think its foolish to assert that it's completely fair for trans women to compete against cis women though, and fear that some people who probably mean well are going to end up accomplishing nothing other than making the issue easier to mock for malicious people and probably hinder wider acceptance.

Absolutely no one is denying that. Not even the fieriest firebrand trans activists.

I’m concerned about the ability of women to maintain a separate division for those born as females, which means I’m opposed DSD and trans athletes who were of the male sex at birth competing in the ‘female sex at birth division.’ I think I can support the human rights of those people while maintaining that stance.

Which XY females do you mean? People with DSD's like Semenya are XY males who have had problems with sex development. They are not XY females.

/

If XX and XY categories are created, there are only two types of XY persons who can be considered biological females and therefore allowed in the XX category:

1. CAIS: complete androgen insensitivity syndrome. Like the name says people with this condition are completely insensitive to testosteron. So although they are XY and have testes, due to a defective testosterone receptor their body is completely incapable of responding to testosterone. They don't have a competitive edge over biological females (XX with ovaries) and therefore can be allowed in the XX category.

2. Swyer sydrome. They have a Y chromosome but the crucial SRY part (sex determining region of the Y chromosome) is malfunctioning. So they don't develop testes and don't produce testosteron. Therefore they don't have a competitive edge over biological females (XX with ovaries) and therefore can be allowed in the XX category.

-> as you can see, all people can neatly be categorized into the XX or XY category for fair sports purposes. With the exception of CAIS and Swyer sydrome, for the reasons explained above, every person with a Y chromosome is male and goes to the XY category.

As I can see, it’s the opposite conclusion: all people cannot be nearly categorized into the XX or XY category. You are now calling some non-XX as “XX” while accusing the DSD/transympathetic of calling males women.

You simply have a different categorization, one that is karyotype supremacist with some ad hoc intersex adjustments for inconvenient cases. It’s not that you actually even care about those intersex corner cases, rather you just don’t want to be completely laughed off, so you make that bargain of philosophical principle. Others make different bargains than you.

Reorganizing all of sport to accommodate anomalies seems silly. There's a reason we have the paralympics and the special olympics.

Surely reorganizing all of X to accommodate Y would’ve seemed silly to you as it indeed did to many people, where X and Y are respectively as follows and X has been shrinking percentage of the population:

women: suffrage

blacks: suffrage, desegregation, anti-discrimination

gays: equal rights

Intersex and trans are not disabled, so that’s a sillier analogy than any of the above.

People with CAIS and Swyer Syndrom have been recognized as women and have been allowed to compete in the women's category for decades.

Dividing the sports into XX and XY categories would force all of them to compete in the XY category, which invites immediate lawsuit. (I am pretty much sure there are high level athletes with CAIS in many sports, including T&F.) And you will certainly lose in the court because the case law is overwhelmingly against you.

The medical and legal experts hired by World Aquatics (FINA) spent way more time than any of us, and they know way more than any of us on this issue. And they came up with a legally defensible policy that is fair to as many people as possible. Why would any rando try to assert his supremacy by contradicting them? Yeah, that's what people do on this board.

The fact that this thread exists is crazy. WTF is wrong with our country?

JAHJ, I'm surpised to see you showing support and respect the approach taken by FINA/World Aquatics given the views you've posted on LRC over time.

The FINA/WA policy in place since the summer of 2022 says very clearly that FINA/WA

is committed to the separation of Aquatics sports into men’s and women’s
categories according to sex

Moreover, the policy defines sex in a binary way you've long railed against, and it describes and classifies XY DSD athletes using factually plain and forthright terminology that you’ve long objected to on the grounds that it's disrespectful, hateful and dehumanizing to them.

For purposes of this Policy:

“Differences of sexual development” (DSD) are a group of conditions where
external genital appearance is discordant with internal sex organs (testes and
ovaries). This Policy is only concerned with 46 XY DSD, i.e., DSD affecting
athletes with testes (males as defined below).

The word “female” means possession of XX chromosomes and (in the absence
of medical intervention) ovaries and increased circulating oestrogen and
progesterone starting at puberty.

The word “male” means possession of XY chromosomes and (in the absence
of medical intervention) testes and increased circulating testosterone starting
at puberty.

The word “sex” denotes natural biological differences between females and
males, including chromosomes, sex organs, and endogenous hormonal
profiles. This Policy uses the word “sex” and the term “biological sex”
interchangeably.

The FINA/WA policy also makes it mandatory that all athletes undergo a method of sex testing that you say you oppose:

2. Certification

a. All athletes must certify their chromosomal sex with their Member
Federation in order to be eligible for World Aquatics competitions. Failure to
do so, or provision of a false certification, will render the athlete ineligible.

b. Member Federations must confirm their athletes’ certifications of
chromosomal sex when registering their athletes to compete in World
Aquatics competitions.

c. World Aquatics reserves the right to include a chromosomal sex screen in
its anti-doping protocol to confirm such certification.

Do you really think

The medical and legal experts hired by World Aquatics (FINA)... came up with a legally defensible policy that is fair to as many people as possible.

???? Or did you just toss off that part of your post to score a point against the fella you were arguing with?

JAHJ, another reason I’m surprised to see you endorsing and praising the FINA/WA policy is that it characterizes all 46,XY DSD athletes born with normally-developed and functioning testes - including those with CAIS - as male athletes with a DSD. Not as female athletes with a DSD, nor as “intersex” athletes with a DSD.

The FINA/WA policy acknowledges that some XY DSD athletes might see themselves as female, have legal documents that say they are female, be perceived as women by others, and be treated as women socially. But the policy is very clear that biologically, they are male.

Moreover, the FINA/WA policy is much stricter than the current World Athletics’ policy when it comes to excluding XY DSD athletes from women’s competition. The only XY DSD athletes born with fully-developed, functioning testes now allowed to seek eligibility for women’s competition in aquatics under FINA/WA rules are those with CAIS.

athletes with 46 XY DSD whose legal gender and/or gender identity is female are
eligible to compete in the women’s category… if they can establish to World Aquatics’ comfortable satisfaction that they have not experienced any part of male puberty beyond Tanner Stage 2 or before age 12, whichever is later. Specifically, the athlete must produce evidence establishing that:

i. They have complete androgen insensitivity and therefore could not
experience male puberty

Otherwise, everyone who qualifies according to the applicable eligibility
conditions has a place in World Aquatics’ competition categories based on
their sex.

So under the current FINA/WA rules, there’s no chance whatsoever of XY DSD athletes like Semenya, Niyonsaba, Mboma and Chand getting a chance to compete in aquatics in the women’s category at all - not even if they take drugs to reduce their T or they get their testes removed.

Similarly, there's no chance that XY DSD athletes like the ones who are such big stars in elite women's football (soccer) today - such as Barba Banda and Racheal Kundananji - could make a splash in elite women's aquatics.

In the past, when I’ve taken the same position on XY DSD athletes with CAIS as FINA/WA does - and I’ve used the same kind of language to describe them - you’ve railed that this is ignorant, hateful, bigoted and morally reprehensible of me. You’ve also claimed that characterizing XY persons with CAIS as males with a DSD dehumanizes them and amounts to "denying/erasing their existence."

So what gives?

Brah...if you has to asking yourself if you're a transphobe...you is prolly a transphobe.