Does shorter rest periods between intervals train the body to dispose of lactate faster?

Bump.

Any training questions, whatever; address them to The Skuj.

Skuj is using terms that are defined in the Martin/Coe book "Better Training for Middle Distance Runners".

Anaerobic Conditioning = threshold running (conditions the anaerobic system without maximizing it).

Anaerobic Capacity = 800/1500 pace (training to maximize the aerobic system).

Aerobic Conditioning = running below threshold

Aerobic Capacity = running at VO2 max velocity

I used to use the same terminology, but now prefer the terms used in most recent physiology texts:

Power = ability to force maximal rates of energy supply from a particular energy system

Capacity = maximum volume of energy that can be produced by a particular energy system

Ultimate goal of training: to maximize both power and capacity of the systems most important for chosen event while optimizing secondary systems (or maximize all of them if you can figure out how).

Alactic Power: sprints at maximum velocity - :01 - :05 repeats; full recovery in order to replenish phosphate stores

Alactic Capacity: maximum effort over :20 - :30 (full recovery)

Lactic Power: maximum effort over :15 - :25 (thus, alactic capacity and lactic power can be worked simultaneously)

Lactic Capacity: :45 - :90 runs at between 800 and 1500 pace (approximate work to rest ratio of between 1:3 and 1:4)

Aerobic Power: 1 - 5 minute runs at vVO2max (approximate work to rest ratio of between 2:1 and 1:2)

Aerobic Capacity: continuous running at below anaerobic threshold for extended periods of time

For example: right now I am at the end of a phase in which I have attempted to maximize my aerobic capacity (traditional type base phase). I believe I have a much enlarged aerobic energy system compared to what I had last year at this time, but I haven't yet maximized my ability to actually "use" this system. This will come from focusing on my aerobic power training while maintaining my aerobic capacity. I think of my increasing my capacity as maximizing the size of the engine I am using while increasing my power is like acquiring the best wheels to drive this engine with.

I appologize! I know I went off on a tangent in a thread already plagued by them, but I felt the need to clarify my ideas, even if it is only to clarify them for myself.

Correction:

I meant to write: Anaerobic Capacity = 800/1500 pace (training to maximize the anaerobic system not aerobic system)

Okay coaches and all the rest we know that racing increases lactic acid obviously. I think it is good to know which intervals dispose this lactic acid more rapidly but I think it is better to know which intervals produce better racing times because thats' what we are interested in improving correct?

So all you coaches and runners tell me from your years of experience running, coaching and observing which interval types produce the better effect in racing time. That is what I am more concern thank you.

Silvio Salazar wrote:

Okay coaches and all the rest we know that racing increases lactic acid obviously. I think it is good to know which intervals dispose this lactic acid more rapidly but I think it is better to know which intervals produce better racing times because thats' what we are interested in improving correct?

They are, of course, related. The ability to reduce blood acidity will affect racing times at certain distances. You really cannot talk about improving racing times without discussing the effect acidity has.

martin/coe terminology wrote:

Skuj is using terms that are defined in the Martin/Coe book "Better Training for Middle Distance Runners"...

Anaerobic Capacity = 800/1500 pace (training to maximize the aerobic system).

Good morning and much happiness to you all. I hope you all enjoyed your St. Patrick's Day and are looking forward to a terrific springtime.

Regarding the above quotation, I must offer a most forceful disagreement. Martin & Coe define anaerobic capacity as short, fast intervals. The slowest pace I could find from them for this type of training is 120% VO2max. The example they use in the book calls for a 4:36 miler to do 800s @ 1:50, 400s @ 55, or 200s @ 27. Given the difficulty of the 800s, the runner would likely be doing something in the 400/200 range. Someone running at 1500 pace would be going to slow to increase anaerobic capacity.

You and my friend skuj may define anaerobic capacity differently, but Martin & Coe define it in much the same terms that most other knowledgeable coaches use. Keep it short and fast, my friend.

Bless you all and good luck with all aspects of your training. I'll be sure to visit again.

The example they use in the book calls for a 4:36 miler to do 800s @ 1:50, 400s @ 55, or 200s @ 27. Given the difficulty of the 800s, the runner would likely be doing something in the 400/200 range.

I haven't looked at that book in a while. Is that example for real or a typo? As a 4:42 miler with a 200m pr of 30, I think I'd have real difficulty with any of those workouts.

They are fast, but that's the point. IMHO, if you're a 4:42 miler you should be able to get under 30 for a 200. This may be just what the doctor ordered for you.

I'm so sorry to disagree once again, Prof, but Coe/Martin define anaerobic capacity training as 200m to 1000m runs at 600m to 4000m race pace, totalling up to 4000m, using a variety of recovery periods, dependant upon many factors. I haven't a clue where you get the example paces for the 4:36 miler. 100% to 130% VO2 max pace is the listed range.

At the end of the day, call it what you want, BUT, developing anaerobic capacity comes in many, many forms, and 20x200m at 1500m race pace with short recovery is one such form. 10 times a 300m hill with walk backs might be abnother. Even 1x1000m at goal 1500m race pace is yet another. The factors determining when you do which kind of anaerobic capacity session are endless.

The problem is that most runners treat workouts as races, so as longer the recovery as faster the intervals.

Let a high schooler run 5x1k with 1min rest and he will run just a bit quicker than 5k-pace, let him do the same with 4min rest he will run the intervals at 3k-pace or even faster.Actually intervals are good cause you run at a high intensity(as in a race) but get less tired so that you can keep up a solid training regime instead of feeling trashed and have to keep it very easy the next days(as after a race).But now to the original question, it doesn't depend on the rest periods, a session of 400m intervals at 10mmol/l lactic acid with 1min rest will probably improve your anaerobic capacity as the same number of 400m intervals at 14mmol/l with 3min rest, but it will give you a stronger stimulus as the same number of 400m intervals at the same 10mmol/l but with 3min rest, it all depends on the modulation.

Correction:You get less tired from intervals(compared to a race) when of course the volume is the same(as the race distance) or just slightly higher(or you take looooong recoveries).

"Anaerobic capacity=800/1500m pace"...wrong, you get higher lactic acid readings at the end of a 400m race than in the 800m.Also forget the idea that threshold running improves only the threshold and "aerobic capacity training" improves only aerobic capacity.The best stimulus to lift the LT(what is the most important training aspect in middle and long distances if you count out running economy)is training close to 100% Vo2max, the problem is that such an intensity even if you have already a highly developed aerobic system is that you'll also require anaerobic energy what will make you tired and limit the volume you can train at this intensity.The aerobic capacity can be improved only by a small marging by training, remember all the studies like... more than 40mpw of jogging doesn't lead to better fitness?they are all referring to Vo2max.

hoggieeee wrote:The aerobic capacity can be improved only by a small margin by training,...

no WAY dude.... wrote:

hoggieeee wrote:The aerobic capacity can be improved only by a small margin by training,...

Just what in the heck are you going an about here?

I am not sure what hoggieeee meant but aerobic capacity DOES develop substantially with training. In the first place, it rasies when aerobic volume of training elevates - up to a point. Dr. Costill studied this years ago and concluded the VO2 max improved in a curvi-linear fashion and topped out at somewhere between 60 and 90 miles per week.

It can develop further by using of fast interval work - most likely due to improved cardiac output - primarily due to improved stroke volume of the heart. Tinman

Skuj wrote:

I'm so sorry to disagree once again, Prof, but Coe/Martin define anaerobic capacity training as 200m to 1000m runs at 600m to 4000m race pace, totalling up to 4000m, using a variety of recovery periods, dependant upon many factors. I haven't a clue where you get the example paces for the 4:36 miler. 100% to 130% VO2 max pace is the listed range.

It appears that "The Professor" is actually a C student. The example given is not for a 4:36 miler, but a runner with a VO2max pace of 4:36, which you can find on page 200. They define anaerobic capacity as 100-130% VO2max speed or 95% speed for the distance run in the 200-800m range.

Also, some of the informatio ("martin/coe terminology") about alactic/glycolytic (lactic) training is not entirely correct. The thing to keep in mind is that you have a substrate change at 7 seconds (alactic to glycolytic) and another one at 40 seconds (glycolytic to aerobic). The energy consumption of a 200 is roughly 35-40% phosphagen, 35-40% glycolytic, and 20-25% aerobic, and the distiction is meaningful for people training for 100-800 meters in order to max out peak speed and kicking speed. So you really have:

0-2 seconds: neuromuscular

2-5 seconds alactic power

7 second alactic capacity

7-15 seconds alactic with glycolytic support

15-34 seconds glycolytic power

40 seconds glycolytic (lactic) capacity

40-90 seconds gltcolytic with aerobic support (lactate tolerance)

>90 seconds principly aerobic

In order to maximize 200 speed, you want to do some training of alactic power in efforts (before full recovery) of ~30 seconds, but you have to do it in the right way, because the alactic system is dependent upon ATP/CP stored in muscle fibers, those stores are almost completely exhausted in 7-10 seconds, and it takes 3 minutes for partial recovery of CP and ~8 minutes for full replenishment. So, to develop alactic power, you do ~30 seconds (sets) with rep breaks that allow (slightly) incomplete recovery of CP:

4 X 60 @95-100% speed with 2-3 min rests (8-10 min sets)

3 X 80 @95-100% speed with 7-8 min rests (10-15 min sets)

The recovery periods are significantly different because the CP stores are essentially depleted by ~7seconds. This is not to say that you don't do 20-30 second bursts with long recovery or 7-15 second bursts with short recovery to train the glycolytic system, but the alactic system has to be handled differently to get meaningful results.

Also, note that the high intensity glycolytic training also has a significant effect on aerobic performance (VO2max + by as much as 7-15% in some studies) due to stimulating mitochondria concentration in type IIa fibers.

Dude, the discussion here is about disposing of lactate. The word 'alactic' means WITHOUT lactic acid. Learn to read and understand, please.

Oh, my my, I’ve done it again. Yes indeed, “Speed Kills” is right about my faux pas. Apparently I had what the young people describe as a “brain fart” (is that the correct terminology?) when I mentioned the 4:36 miler instead of correctly referring to the runner as someone whose VO2max pace is 4:36. Sill, I don’t think I deserve a C. After all, the 1 mile is run at 110-112% VO2max. Therefore I figure I deserve a B+ at worst. I kid, of course.

To my friend Skuj I would say do not be sorry. I can clear up your confusion by recommending you take a look at page 200 of the book “Better Training for Distance Runners.” This is the source of the example paces I cited. This page also contains Martin & Coe’s observations regarding anaerobic capacity training. You will see that they note typical distances of 200 m to 800 m for this type of training. Your 1000 m intervals are a bit outside of their window. And I must take exception to your suggested anaerobic capacity workouts (20x200, 10 x 300 hill, 1x1K @1500 pace). None of these are true anaerobic capacity workouts as defined by knowledgeable coaches and people like Marin & Coe.

Continued good luck to all of you! Thank you for your thoughtful responses.

Speed Kills wrote:

The thing to keep in mind is that you have a substrate change at 7 seconds (alactic to glycolytic) and another one at 40 seconds (glycolytic to aerobic).

There is not a complete change, just a change in priorities. When you start running, all energy systems are active. They will all contribute at different levels as long as fuel is available. The demands on the muscle (speed, endurance, etc.) determine the relative contributions of each system.

Coach Todd wrote:

There is not a complete change, just a change in priorities. When you start running, all energy systems are active. They will all contribute at different levels as long as fuel is available. The demands on the muscle (speed, endurance, etc.) determine the relative contributions of each system.

That's distance runner's mentality, but doesn't really apply to anaerobic systems because that ability to produce energy is limited.

The phosphagen system can produce roughly 70% of the energy of an all-out 100, 40% of a 200, or 10% of a 400. It's like a rocket afterburner that lasts for 7 seconds, and when you've used up the CP stored in your muscle fibers, that's all there is--unless you plan on Gallowalking an 800. So, if you want to improve your kicking or sprinting ability by increasing the amount of power that can be produced by the alactic system, you have to train at the intensity that the alactic system can operate at, and thet means that there has to be alactic fuel available. If you just train by running fast 200's, you are largely burning glycolytic fuel, and you can't run as fast.

Same thing applies to the glycolytic system. Single runs of 15-30 seconds increase the peak speed you can run at by producing lactate. But the ability to produce energy starts to shut down at 40 seconds as mitochondria stop producing energy in IIa fibers because the pH in the fibers becomes too high. So, running all-out for 50-90 seconds becomes lactate tolerance instead of glycolytic power, and the workout has different (i.e., slower) effects.