I'm highly suspicious of Narve Nordås

Yes but the peculiar part is Nordas going out of the way in NOT pursuing the 1500, 3000 or shorter events when evidence and promising results pointed his speed endurance to be a strength not weakness. It doesn’t feel like a Gjert thing, as his sons and athletes all pursue the 1500 and shorter. But I guess it’s weird Gjert didn’t spot the 1500 ability until late. Nordas is a blunt guy and I think he might not take offense if I called it like it was. His own aversion to running the 1500 and 3000 seriously before 2023 was nonsensical and silly. It almost led to his retiring from the sport when he was quite talented. If this improvement is not due to doping, it is due to his absurd belief (that somehow may still persist) that he had no speed or was not talented. It reminds me of Pre and Bowermans discussion of talent (and Bowerman was like you run a 3:54 mile Steve) but even Pre ran his best event (3-mile/5K) and didn’t try half marathons because he thought he wasn’t talented like Nordas I did. I don’t think you could ID an athlete who self-sabotaged by not trying the events they were best at for years in favor of one they were only pretty good at. Especially a shorter distance that could be easily experimented with. So he’s a weird case or there’s something else at play that took a 13:15 guy to a 3:29 (52hi last lap)/13:05 on a bad day type.

The bias comes from "knowing" about an athlete - following someone like Hocker since he was a high school kid vs someone like Nordas, who has been running way longer than Hocker, but let's say an American fan of the sport may not heard off until last year. Then he/she tries to investigate that Nordas guy, sees big drop in times, and labels it "doping". Yet Hockers progression seems very similar or even more spectacular.
I personally believe neither of these two guys are doping.

Just trying to get the facts right, since that poster was not.

100% suspicious!

He grew up in the shadow of the Ingebrigtsen brothers, which might reasonably explain his belief.

He has been training with Gjert and Jakob since he was a teen. Thats where he came from, lol.

Also Gjert supppsedly had trouble with Nordås. He didn't fully buy into the training and regularly wanted to take long runs on trails without a watch or anything. He also got a "second chance" given that he stopped with all extra work and focused on training, but Nordås tok a second job at a sports store, worked at the farm at home as well as studying. We cant know anything but it seems like fully committing to the training, stopping all work outside of running and getting some confidence helps. When your work out with Jakob (and Henrik and Filip) its no wonder you dont feel like a coming 1500 superstar.

What was wrong in my statement.

I said Hocker improved by 11 seconds in 1 year,he did.

I said his improvement stopped when the AIU started testing him,pretty much did.

What is wrong is you. Omitting facts like Hocker's injuries.

I see this post wasn't received well but truthfully Ingvaldsen is one of the more suspicious 400m runners on the circuit right now.

I think that you and Thoughsleader both have some good reasoning when it comes to comparing Katir and Nordås. And I even think I would give you the upper hand here; detailed and good reasoning…

But this also shows how complicated analysing progression is, because I’m quite certain both you and Thoughtsleader may be very wrong… (About both Katir and Nordås)…

F.ex Katir’s two years of running 3.36 before the breakthrough of 3.28 -your analysis seems right (first look) because he doesn’t (unlike Nordås) win the races. But you and I don’t know what that means -we can only speculate, and speculation is a thin animal! Even if Katir doesn’t win the races he might have something unraveled / unreleased in the 1500m (indicated by being on a plateau for two years). Or you could be right -no way of knowing; the Devil’s in the details, and we will never have them (detailed enough). And even Katir’s very suspicious whereabouts don’t need to mean drugs -I could come up with a handful other explanations (that of course might be wrong)…

It’s extremely dangerous to use a linear logic when it comes to the human sphere -very smart people do it all the time, with very flawed answers! Just have a closer look at this thread -nobody has something that even look like proof for their claims. -Their lists of suspicious athletes could easily be transformed to no suspicion at all, if using a different set of indications.. F.ex Jakob suspicious only based on performance / dominance -how will the same guys explain Herbert Elliott. Was he also obviously doped..?

Lastly: I could erase everything I have written above, an nevertheless easily rip apart your reasoning (even if your reasoning might be right -unfounded guesses can always be right sometimes): I could rip it apart simply by narrowing the whole thing down to only be a comparison between Katir and Nordås, although now analysing the 5000m. -Nordås has been crappy at the distance for many years (despite prioritising it). So what if he now eventually runs sub 12.50 (which I expect) -must he then be doped? (Following your logic from Katir’s progression in the 1500m!?).

In a sport in which doping is everywhere you can pretty much guarantee those that stand out from the crowd are almost certainly doping.

Of course no one can be trusted to be clean at the top -that’s goes without saying as long as there’s no reliable testing… (But you could go back nearly 50 years in time, and state the same!).
And why on earth stressing “at the top” -no evidence to suggest it’s better further below; most of the caught is not at the top… And in Norway now f.ex there’s reports of a rapidly growing problem of steroid use among the young population (even 12 years old). The drugs easily to get hold of through the post delivery.

Does this mean that Jakob and Narve are dirty -not at all! (But they might be of course -will we ever know for sure, or must we keep on speculate based on fluffy indications in all directions..? -No speculation from me; I will keep on pointing on the flaws in the indications of both clean and dirty!).

So what is your proposal here -should we ban athletes like Håvard only based on your reasoning here. And even do the same in the criminal courts (base everything on numbers and single “indication”). Or should we try to go for better testing and proof..?

We have long moved on from "might" be to what is probable if not yet certain.

I mentioned the "top" of the sport because that is what we are discussing. But doping isn't confined to the best.

Of course we can't ban people based merely on suspicion. But we can choose to be sceptical of their achievements. If they are doping then they will almost always be a step ahead of the testers - unless they are dumb or careless.

I like your post -things are complicated. But just to complicate things even further: Nordås did in fact “try to run the 3000m seriously before 2023” (with success) - he was number 5 behind Jakob, Mechaal and Katir in Euros indoor 2021…

And a fun fact to your remark about Gjert not spotting the 1500m for Nordås: Gjert says in an interview that it was Jakob that proposed Nordås going for the 1500m..!

Like Clarke, Quax, Walker, Willis, V. Adams, C. Myers?

After reading this thread the biggest conspiracy of all is how NORWAY claims to be the MOST EQUAL AND EGALITARIAN country on the planet despite REFUSING TO SHARE the sauce with their WOMEN ATHLETES who remain VERIFIABLY USELESS.

EQUAL ACCESS NOW!