There are coaches who say just that. Aouita was allegedly one.
It isn't always or only doping. You still need talent and to train. But you won't beat the best most talented highly-trained athletes who dope unless you also dope. That is the top of the sport today.
Aouita made those alleged comments when guys like Ramzi were still winning, and before the ABP. He was probably correct at the time, which is why athletics almost died a death.
Now blatant fullthrottle doping is much harder to do and times have slowed, until supershoes and the latest tracks, plus wavelights.
With all due respect, you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to shoes or tracks. You've admitted you've never even worn a pair of super shoes. Even a hobby jogger like me can feel the crazy difference. Your belief that shoes make little or no difference is as absurd and as much an act of faith as rekrunner's belief that EPO doesn't work.
Your point is valid when it comes to guys like El G and Lagat running a second per lap faster than Coe and Aouita just 15 years after them, with no big improvements in shoes or tracks, and exactly the same training (only curiously the same workouts harder and faster with never any injuries). But it's nearly 50 years now since Coe.
Nearly 50 years since Coe? You're thinking of Vasala and Walker. Closer to 40 years.
There are world records still on the books set in shoes worn 30 and 40 years ago. They don't make as big a difference as you and others think. Do you think Coe is running 1:40 in modern shoes on modern tracks? No one is near that today.
Doping may have changed since Aouita's era but that is because it continues to develop. Antidoping is always behind. Doping won't be any less today than it was decades ago. The incentives are too great. Look at the stream of violations coming out of Kenya.
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Ovett never has showed to be capable to run sub 3:30, never.
You could have said the same about Coe too, but all of a sudden -30 years old -he does a 3.29.77 (his former pb being 3.31.95). And yes, I know he did 3.47.33 in the mile, but that one stands quite alone too.
My point is this: There’s more than meets the eye. Maybe Cram could have been a 3.44 miler with a better paced race in Oslo. And why in earth would Ovett be any worse than Coe and Cram..?
Yes, of course, and so would Lord Coe. This also applies to pretty much every world-class middle and long distance track athlete in their time.
And yes, it applies to the sprinters as well, but their performances are not questioned as often. On a modern surface, with modern shoes, and modern, full-time/pro regimen, I have no doubt that Jesse Owens would've ran a 9.65-9.70
I have considerable doubts about this. Jesse Owens PRd with 10.2 in 1936. Harold Davis ran 10.2 into a head wind just a few years later. Do you think *he* could have run that fast? What about the other half dozen or so 10.2 guys?
Jesse Owens was an amazing athlete, but Usain Bolt is a freak of nature.
Aouita made those alleged comments when guys like Ramzi were still winning, and before the ABP. He was probably correct at the time, which is why athletics almost died a death.
Now blatant fullthrottle doping is much harder to do and times have slowed, until supershoes and the latest tracks, plus wavelights.
With all due respect, you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to shoes or tracks. You've admitted you've never even worn a pair of super shoes. Even a hobby jogger like me can feel the crazy difference. Your belief that shoes make little or no difference is as absurd and as much an act of faith as rekrunner's belief that EPO doesn't work.
Your point is valid when it comes to guys like El G and Lagat running a second per lap faster than Coe and Aouita just 15 years after them, with no big improvements in shoes or tracks, and exactly the same training (only curiously the same workouts harder and faster with never any injuries). But it's nearly 50 years now since Coe.
Statistics is a fragile thing (for all sorts of reasons): F.ex your argument based on comparisons of El Guerrouj and Coe would have been strengthened if the latter hadn’t run 3.29.77 as a 30 years old (3.31.95 being his life time best). -You could then proposed 1.5 sec slower pr lap than El Guerrouj / Lagat, and not only 1.0…
Contrary to that your argument would have been severely weakened if Cram had had a better paced race in Oslo, and done 3.44 in the mile (as he himself and many others think he could have done).
My point is: Your arguments depends on more or less a single run, or the lack of a single (possible) result.
Your comparisons are cherry picked. If you replace Aouita and Coe with Herb Elliott the results of El Guerrouj would be far less surprising. Yes you could put in Jakob Ingebrigtsen there as well - as “slow” distance runner who barring jet lag and short pacing comes 6 tens of a second shy of the mile WR…
I don’t know who did illegal drugs. But you can’t estimate this by some easy exertions from some narrow statistics… The same with the super shoes and tracks -yes, they matters; but there are individuality and nuances also there…
I didn't say "it is all foreign coaches". It was you who brought up, more than once, the Kenyans' "limited educational background".
Good nutrition is not about being intellectual. Great advances, like the Maurten product I mentioned, those yes, are due to scientific research.
And in your last post you said that "The rate of doping variations shows is something else." First of all, this thread is about Steve Ovett, not Kenyans. Second, it is possible to benefit from doping and/or better nutrition.
Kenyans eat more or less the same today as they did when Keino was running, so we are not talking about the diet, but of (legal) supplements that aid recovery, hydration/carb intake during long runs, and in-race nutrition.
Nutrition is better nowadays, period. In the 1970s I would have trouble just finding yoghurt. Just that. Yoghurt. And I am from a western European country. Vitamins? Maybe with a prescription. Runners would finish a half marathon and head to the nearest pub for greasy food and a few pints. Elite athletes don't do that anymore. It wouldn't be better nutrition that would make Ovett run 3:20 but maybe if his ceiling was 3:29, better nutrition might help him enough in training to allow him to go 3:28 Add the shoes, the wavelight that allows for perfect pacing, he would definitely have benefitted a lot from racing nowadays.
Ovett never ran under 3:30 because he was never in a race where he needed to do it to win.
Ovett did go after the mile WR in a few paced races in 1981. His best effort was 3:48.4, which was briefly the WR, and converts to 3:31.5.
He ran 1:44.09 and 3:30.77. Even without any adjustments for all of the technological advances in the last 40 years he would still be in the mix for global finals which i would argue is the definition of being competitive.
I agree. I met Steve Ovett several years ago at the Prefontaine Classic. Quite personable. A friend took out picture together. Told Steve that I ran the same event (800) as he did . . . but I was 10 seconds behind him.
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He ran 1:44.09 and 3:30.77. Even without any adjustments for all of the technological advances in the last 40 years he would still be in the mix for global finals which i would argue is the definition of being competitive.
I agree in everything you are writing here, and I also think Ovett would have been competitive in every time period. But here is the thing: I don’t think Ovett chose to be competitive to be one among the all time greats! And why does that matter? Simply because he could have been…
To me the all time greats are (from 800m and above, and in modern times): Rudisha, Kipketer, H.Elliott, Haile, Bekele, Komen, Morceli, El Guerrouj, Ngeny, Lagat, Kiprop- (a minus for a “may be” positive sample in a shady doping case), Ingebrigtsen, Kipchoge, Kiptum, Kiplimo, Cheptegei. (I have let out some who still is in progress, like Girma and Kejelcha, and likely forgotten one or two or more..).
Borderline all time greats: Coe, Cram, Cheruiyot, Kipsang, Mo Farah (because of his 1500m times in addition to being a distance runner),Aouita.
Great, but not even borderline all time: Ovett, among others.
Well, I think Ovett had it in him to be an all time great (his 2 mile WR sort of showed some potential, although to soft because he let Henry Rono do all the work, and he (being born in another time) could have learned from Jakob to show boat in a sympathetic way, and from Kipyegon to feel some shame over being towed… Cram, Cheruiyot and Mo clearly also could have been up there, but not Coe I think. -He seems to have fulfilled his potential -I don’t know if he trained in a restricted way, or lacked the others’ talent (maybe fast twitch over slow twitch always is bad for a miler and above) -his two Olympic golds means nothing to me; all times greats run fast, and his 1.41,7 and 2.12 or 3.29.7 aren’t fast enough…
Guess I will earn some downvotes -but honesty before politically correctness… And apologies to the all time greats I may have forgotten.
Yes. Subtract 2 seconds from his 1500m and mile times and see how they stack up to today. That is roughly what the shoes are worth. Better tracks and training, subtract another second.
I agree in everything you are writing here, and I also think Ovett would have been competitive in every time period. But here is the thing: I don’t think Ovett chose to be competitive to be one among the all time greats! And why does that matter? Simply because he could have been…
To me the all time greats are (from 800m and above, and in modern times): Rudisha, Kipketer, H.Elliott, Haile, Bekele, Komen, Morceli, El Guerrouj, Ngeny, Lagat, Kiprop- (a minus for a “may be” positive sample in a shady doping case), Ingebrigtsen, Kipchoge, Kiptum, Kiplimo, Cheptegei. (I have let out some who still is in progress, like Girma and Kejelcha, and likely forgotten one or two or more..).
Borderline all time greats: Coe, Cram, Cheruiyot, Kipsang, Mo Farah (because of his 1500m times in addition to being a distance runner),Aouita.
Great, but not even borderline all time: Ovett, among others.
Well, I think Ovett had it in him to be an all time great (his 2 mile WR sort of showed some potential, although to soft because he let Henry Rono do all the work, and he (being born in another time) could have learned from Jakob to show boat in a sympathetic way, and from Kipyegon to feel some shame over being towed… Cram, Cheruiyot and Mo clearly also could have been up there, but not Coe I think. -He seems to have fulfilled his potential -I don’t know if he trained in a restricted way, or lacked the others’ talent (maybe fast twitch over slow twitch always is bad for a miler and above) -his two Olympic golds means nothing to me; all times greats run fast, and his 1.41,7 and 2.12 or 3.29.7 aren’t fast enough…
Guess I will earn some downvotes -but honesty before politically correctness… And apologies to the all time greats I may have forgotten.
I was of course a little too hasty: Confused Kipsang with Kiplagat, and forgot athletes like Nuguse, Fisher, Tergat, Kandie… (And Mo Katir comming up).
I agree in everything you are writing here, and I also think Ovett would have been competitive in every time period. But here is the thing: I don’t think Ovett chose to be competitive to be one among the all time greats! And why does that matter? Simply because he could have been…
To me the all time greats are (from 800m and above, and in modern times): Rudisha, Kipketer, H.Elliott, Haile, Bekele, Komen, Morceli, El Guerrouj, Ngeny, Lagat, Kiprop- (a minus for a “may be” positive sample in a shady doping case), Ingebrigtsen, Kipchoge, Kiptum, Kiplimo, Cheptegei. (I have let out some who still is in progress, like Girma and Kejelcha, and likely forgotten one or two or more..).
Borderline all time greats: Coe, Cram, Cheruiyot, Kipsang, Mo Farah (because of his 1500m times in addition to being a distance runner),Aouita.
Great, but not even borderline all time: Ovett, among others.
Well, I think Ovett had it in him to be an all time great (his 2 mile WR sort of showed some potential, although to soft because he let Henry Rono do all the work, and he (being born in another time) could have learned from Jakob to show boat in a sympathetic way, and from Kipyegon to feel some shame over being towed… Cram, Cheruiyot and Mo clearly also could have been up there, but not Coe I think. -He seems to have fulfilled his potential -I don’t know if he trained in a restricted way, or lacked the others’ talent (maybe fast twitch over slow twitch always is bad for a miler and above) -his two Olympic golds means nothing to me; all times greats run fast, and his 1.41,7 and 2.12 or 3.29.7 aren’t fast enough…
Guess I will earn some downvotes -but honesty before politically correctness… And apologies to the all time greats I may have forgotten.
Second thoughts: I did a stupid error in my analysis of Coe (shows the danger in to much staring into statistics without context) -I didn’t give him enough credit for his 1.41.7 since I forgot the factor of shoe and track improvement when comparing him with Kipketer and Rudisha. So guess I have to eat crow and lift him to the upper level -does it gladly for this special athlete that I watched live so many times (Bislett games).
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