I'm adding this tweet to the first post. The whole thread title is somewhat misleading. His tweet certainly didn't bash the format. I think the text was a little bit anti but he's like I was - a little confused by the concept.
I didn't mean to be misleading, I just felt there were a few complaints in the newsletter about the way bubble events are overtaking marathon majors for sub-elite runners. You're Rojo, change the title if you want!
You left out the part where I ask, "Is there another option?"
Really this section was intended to invoke some conversation so thank you for starting the thread - it definitely was not a complaint about the event!
Right now this format is super effective for helping athletes qualify for the Trials, but what happens when the world's best athletes skip Majors to run these types of events instead? I see positives and negatives to that reality. I'd be curious to hear opinions.
The marathon Olympic Trials standard should be WAY faster. 2:18 is nothing. It should be 2:13 - women are running 2:13 (and faster). Either 2:13 or limited to the top 75 athletes.
There are going to be over 200 people in the Olympic Trials marathon in 2024. That is foolish. 2:18 turns the Olympic Trials marathon into the hobby jogger badge of honor.
If we raise the standard, we will also see the USA become more competitive on the world stage.
Not much wrong with 2:18 and 2:37. If anything I would adjust to 2:17 and 2:35 and not allow aided courses.
Why would sub elites choose the majors over a 'bubble event' such as this? At a major they get no prize money, no appearance fees, probably high cost of lodging, and in, the case of the men in particular, often don't even get to start in the elite corral.(remember Yuki at London?) If they don't start in the elite corral they don't get the elite aid stations.
Heck they SURE as hell won't get tv coverage, the winners of the majors barely get coverage! (see: Chicago. wheelchairs, drunken shenanigans in the streets, 10,000 bananas...)
A major is not the best opportunity for sub elites to run their best, not is it cost effective. so why should they do it? Just because Merber thinks that everyone should show some sort of proper respect to the majors by running them against their own interests, does not obligate anyone to do so. He's welcome to run all the World major marathons he wishes to
I think it's an interesting format, not that anyone asked me. I actually think it's pretty cool thinking about organizing one large scale race like this, invite all who want to OTQ, and run it in the lead up to trials (basically what this did).
I think this format is better than a big city marathon when thinking about sub-elites who want to OTQ. Maybe not for the elite - elite... like a Mantz, Rupp, Young... who are trying to run sub 2:07/2:09... but for those just looking to keep running well and OTQ because it is impressive, no matter what letsrun says.
For some context, there were 11 US runners at Chicago that ran sub 2:18 (including Mantz/Young/Rupp etc) and at McKirdy, there were 35 or so. The conditions were good, the logistics were MUCH easier than a big city marathon, and frankly, more alike to a Olympic Trials or Olympic marathon race.
As much as I thought I didn't like the idea, I've convinced myself that it's now a great idea that should be replicated. You get the top echelon of US runners competing and maybe miss out on just the elite of the elite, which is fine by me. I like the stories of the sub-elites that are holding down real jobs, grinding away without a contract from a shoe company.
If Kyle Merber reads this...
I think CitiusMag should sponsor a race like this. Think about it, a bunch of former collegiate runners that are grinding away in the small hometowns they are in, holding down jobs, running with local clubs, still chasing the OTQ dream. They've got families, wives, friends, coaches, ex-coaches all involved in their pursuit of a goal that may not be the top of the olympic podium, but it's a heck of an achievement. The heartbreak of missing it by 10 seconds, the elation of a goal acheived... the way most could identify with those characters. It's made for something... (TV, Youtube, something...) You could profile guys on a destination OTQ podcast, do some youtube videos around their training up to the race, it would be great content...
This post was edited 5 minutes after it was posted.
"Selfishly, I wish a race like this would expand & offer a sub-2:30 & 2:40 pace groups for men & 2:50 & 3:00 for women. It can be hard to run those times at a major marathon. Would be fun to take a crack at times like that with other like-minded people in good conditions."
Give it time and they will start including those slower time goals because, much the World Marathon Majors, someone will realize that there is a money grab for the taking. This level of runner is where the running world makes their money. It will take some time but eventually the bell curve will show the sweet spot of optimum cash and you'll have events like these set up for 4-5 hr marathoners.
Would a marathon on a regulation track (400M) be eligible for a qualifier? It meets all the standards for elevation loss, start finish within range etc I'm surprised some company hasn't tried that. You could get a ton of people on a track and qualify everyone.
The marathon project in 2020 had far better video coverage than anything we've ever seen from Chicago or NYC.
If these events increase in popularity, the grassroots coverage online that would come with that on youtube, citius, whatever, that would actually care about showing the runners and the race would be better than anything NBC has ever put out. We get better coverage of Walmsey Hoka time trials than we do major marathons at this point.
God forbid we reward 2:25 runners that bust their ass and give them elite support. God forbid they feel like a champion for half a day. At Chicago, you are just one out of 48,000. The price is inflated out the wazoo. Even though they would qualify to be in American development corral at Chicago, the race does not give a darn about you unless you are given an appearance fee or have some type of marketability. At the McKirdy Marathon, the price is significantly less, you get elite fluids, and it is a favorable environment to success and potentially run a fast time. You are the priority at the McKirdy Marathon, which is not always the case for the "on the cusp" athletes between 2:20-2:25.
Some interesting ideas/questions in Merber's article. For the elites, I'm not too worried that events like this will draw many of them away from the big city marathons. They'll go wherever the appearance money is, and I think it'll be rare that someone is willing to put big money behind an event like breaking 2 with Kipchoge. On the elite side I don't really care whether or not the marathon is set up more like a time trial with pacers, I just want to see the best racing each other more often. It would have been great to see Kipchoge and Kiptum in the same race this fall. Hard to think of a good solution to that though, I can't think of any realistic alternative that would bring more interest and money to the sport than the current set up with the world marathon majors.
On the sub-elite side I could see events like this becoming more popular. I don't see any real down side to that for the sport though. The world marathon majors already have plenty of people signing up, and I don't think it really hurts smaller local marathons if the winner is a guy running 2:40 because all the sub 2:20 guys start going to events like this.
But, if we want to encourage more real "races" I don't think it would be a bad idea to make it so you can qualify for the trials by doing something like finishing in the top 20 Americans at Boston, Chicago or New York during the qualifying window. I think there's still a few qualification spots for the top finishers at the US Marathon Championships, although I feel like USATF always takes forever to even announce where the US Championships is in a given year.
Two thoughts: #1- There are definitely runners who don't qualify for the Trials, & who maybe end of falling out of the sport sooner than they would have, without this race. #2- The irony is that this race should be what a publication like Citius Mag is all about. Someone saw a way to support people working full-time jobs/still chasing the dream. They should be having 2:17 guys/2:36 women on the podcast. Those runners can be more inspiring than 2:08/2:22 types.
&, fwiw, someone who ran the race talked about racing towards the end. This race was designed for everyone to get the best out of themselves. By pacing right, a lot of people ran to their potential. 28 runners between 2:15:55 & 2:17:51. Most of those guys were together on the first several laps but they certainly raced the closing miles & wanted to beat each other. There's something nice about being both communal & competitive. You're happy for the person who finished right in front of and right behind you. That's really awesome.
This would be possible for sure. So do it. Start a race which bans running with a watch or having any sort of clock.
Maybe even ban mile markers.
I think it could make for a neat concept race.
Do it in the Midwest and I'd maybe show up.
I was just looking at results from the 1971 British National Cross Country race. (Yes, I may have too much time on my hands.) There were about 900 finishers but only the top fifty got times.
In his weekly Wednesday newsletter, Merber says this about the McKirdy race last weekend, where 32 men and 12 women ran OTQ times:
”the problem is having time-based qualifying standards that force athletes to stop competing with each other, and only with the clock”
He has a point, but really I think Kyle’s just jealous that fellow 1500 man Ben Blankenship had a better marathon debut than him. ;)
But seriously, in the realm of 2:17-2:20 marathoners, who is really racing? Even in a world major marathon? Everyone goes for time unless they’re in contention for prize money, and you have to be Olympic-caliber for that.
As for Rockland Lake State Park, sure it’s fast, but there are a lot of turns, and it’s impossible to run the tangent with so many people in the group. Kyle says they delayed the start because of weather. Actually, it was because of darkness. It was supposed to go at 6:30, then 6:40, then the race didn’t start until 6:55.
At least it’s a legal course (for world athletics purposes) unlike CIM. Heck, Grandma’s with a tailwind is probably faster than Rockland.
I genuinely don't understand why I keep hearing that time trial type marathons aren't racing. A race is to see who can get from point A to point B the fastest. But we want slower runs? It makes no sense.
The 2016 Rio Men's 1500m final was pure racing...the definition of racing.
But Letsrun hated it because Centro only ran 3:50 with a 50-second last lap where he was perfectly positioned (racing) at the bell. Centro won an incredibly competitive race full of all-time great athletes by 0.1 seconds and 5th place was just 0.58 seconds behind him.
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