2:24 on a record eligible course has never been in her “wheelhouse”
Another crusader.
I swear you all must have had some sort of local running club record stolen by someone who ran a few seconds faster on one of these blasphemous record ineligible courses.
I never understand why people don't run legal certified courses in the first place. I was a lot slower but I always did my research on which race to run to get a legal PR.
Back to Des: Sure, for an actual certified World Record (or in this case USATF Master's Record) you need a World Athletics Cert course. Which Boston is not. Sure, she was "aided" in her time of 2:22 because of the big tailwind. But, if she had supershoes on that special day it's not a stretch to imagine that her time possibly could have been 2:20 or faster....
Making an erroneous assumption here that Des is a typical responder to supershoes (others have made the same wrong assumption, and it shows up in every thread about supershoes). As you note in a later post, the "average" person might do a couple minutes better. However, that means some will do better and some will do worse. There's no evidence that Des is in the "average" or "better" category; she might just as easily be in the "do worse" group, and therefore might not have been faster at all.
Did Des win Boston in super shoes when they weren’t readily available to all the Africans yet?
I believe she won because all of the top people dropped out. A lot of the WMM races have time bonus incentives, some of those people drop out when it becomes obvious they aren't going to make much money. And bad weather makes it more likely an individual person will drop out anyway. Des ran a more controlled race and finished.
Des ran a more controlled race and won on a day when the top people couldn't hack it.
Linden has earned the right to make noise. I've got no problem with her opinion. I am curious to hear her talk about taking an Olympic starting place when she knew she was too injured to finish. Just curious what her mindset was.
Des made a couple Olympic Teams....she's obviously great.
As a teammate of her at Hansons when that first happened (and when she got 2nd at Boston),
I would say it is fair to say if we had "super shoes" back in 2011-2012 we probably all would have been 1-3 minutes faster for a marathon. Maybe not 100% as some respond differently, but some super shoes are for sure making people (Even elites!) a few minutes faster. The science is clear on that.
As far as "legal courses" go....well, people like to discredit anyone's PR nowadays if it doesn't show up on their World Athletics Profile. I believe times/performances need to be taken into context:
Following only World Athletics, that basically means none of you can count your PR from a course like CIM, Boston, Grandmas (or in my case Rock n' Rock San Diego) either then.
But the issue with Des is that her fastest time was not so much the net downhill nature of the course (Boston)...it was more the fact that on a point-to point course you have a potential for a massive tailwind. And that's exactly what happened when she ran 2:22 there for 2nd in 2011 (remember Ryan Hall ran 2:04 in that race too?!).
Then of course when she won Boston it was a super headwind day (tough conditions!). So there's that performance also....despite the relatively slow time. It could be argued that she does really well on extreme weather days at Boston.
But I would agree there is nothing from her 5km, 10k, and half marathon PRs to suggest that she actually was a "sub 2:20" kind of runner on a flat course in normal weather conditions....even if she had super shoes back then. However, if she had super shoes on that day at Boston her time very well could have been 2:19:xx....just everyone would have also been faster and she might not have gotten 2nd then!
Our cohort is a tough one to be in though...because I look back at my prime marathon years (circa 2011-2015) and think "if only those super shoes were out back then!"... Runners drop 2:18 like it's nothing now. These are runners that used to run 2:21 before!
Super shoes are worth 4% on average and potentially more depending on footstrike and efficiency with the elites. If we recall, 4% was the advertised and tested difference, and that looks about right for many of these "before and after" time comparisons. Your 1-3 minute estimate is far too conservative... look no further than WR drops the past couple of years.
Along those lines, it's not a stretch to think Des' 2:25:55 was worth a low 2:20 with super shoes. But yeah... sub 2:20 would've required some optimal weather conditions and/or favorable course.
Back to Des: Sure, for an actual certified World Record (or in this case USATF Master's Record) you need a World Athletics Cert course. Which Boston is not. Sure, she was "aided" in her time of 2:22 because of the big tailwind. But, if she had supershoes on that special day it's not a stretch to imagine that her time possibly could have been 2:20 or faster....
Making an erroneous assumption here that Des is a typical responder to supershoes (others have made the same wrong assumption, and it shows up in every thread about supershoes). As you note in a later post, the "average" person might do a couple minutes better. However, that means some will do better and some will do worse. There's no evidence that Des is in the "average" or "better" category; she might just as easily be in the "do worse" group, and therefore might not have been faster at all.
Again with the lack of reading comprehension! Look at what I wrote exactly and what the words actually mean.....
I wrote [as you quoted above]: "....it's *not a stretch to imagine* that her time *possibly could have been*....[2-minutes faster with super shoes]"
That is not an "erroneous assumption"....it was acknowledging that super shoes *can* easily make a 2-min difference....even for an elite runner!
I have no idea if Des is a "super responder" or not [although keep in mind she did win Boston in super shoes later against all others who had super shoes].
....and I also don't know how good or bad Brooks "super shoe" design(s) are exactly either. All I'm saying is it "it isn't a stretch of the imagination"....considering she ran 2:22 with a tailwind to get 2nd place at Boston in the classic foam Brooks T7. I was teammates with her at the time at Hansons and that's what most of us wore in 2011.
Des made a couple Olympic Teams....she's obviously great.
As a teammate of her at Hansons when that first happened (and when she got 2nd at Boston),
I would say it is fair to say if we had "super shoes" back in 2011-2012 we probably all would have been 1-3 minutes faster for a marathon. Maybe not 100% as some respond differently, but some super shoes are for sure making people (Even elites!) a few minutes faster. The science is clear on that.
As far as "legal courses" go....well, people like to discredit anyone's PR nowadays if it doesn't show up on their World Athletics Profile. I believe times/performances need to be taken into context:
Following only World Athletics, that basically means none of you can count your PR from a course like CIM, Boston, Grandmas (or in my case Rock n' Rock San Diego) either then.
But the issue with Des is that her fastest time was not so much the net downhill nature of the course (Boston)...it was more the fact that on a point-to point course you have a potential for a massive tailwind. And that's exactly what happened when she ran 2:22 there for 2nd in 2011 (remember Ryan Hall ran 2:04 in that race too?!).
Then of course when she won Boston it was a super headwind day (tough conditions!). So there's that performance also....despite the relatively slow time. It could be argued that she does really well on extreme weather days at Boston.
But I would agree there is nothing from her 5km, 10k, and half marathon PRs to suggest that she actually was a "sub 2:20" kind of runner on a flat course in normal weather conditions....even if she had super shoes back then. However, if she had super shoes on that day at Boston her time very well could have been 2:19:xx....just everyone would have also been faster and she might not have gotten 2nd then!
Our cohort is a tough one to be in though...because I look back at my prime marathon years (circa 2011-2015) and think "if only those super shoes were out back then!"... Runners drop 2:18 like it's nothing now. These are runners that used to run 2:21 before!
Fair take as always but I wonder if she's considering the advantage of training with super shoes as well? Less fatigue supposedly which leads to less injuries, more miles, faster average paces and better neurological adaptation?
Did Des win Boston in super shoes when they weren’t readily available to all the Africans yet?
I believe she won because all of the top people dropped out. A lot of the WMM races have time bonus incentives, some of those people drop out when it becomes obvious they aren't going to make much money. And bad weather makes it more likely an individual person will drop out anyway. Des ran a more controlled race and finished.
Thank you for this. I've watched that race a few times because there was such carnage on both the men's and women's side. I mean the woman's second place winner was- not really on anyone's radar.
The only thing that perhaps exceeds it to my memory is the Women's Marathon in Doha at Worlds, for a completely different reason obviously.
“I’m glad I’m 40 because the sport when I started? That’s a different sport,” Linden said. “If I had to peak in my career with the super shoes, maybe I’d break 2:20, which doesn’t put you in the conversation now. I don’t mean that as a knock on anyone, but if you want to be competitive, you’re going to have to level up and start believing that 2:14s are in your wheelhouse. So, I’m glad I’m 40.”
Des is realistic that 2:20 and slower women marathoners are not competitive nowadays and "doesn't put you in the conversation now". Do our younger American women marathoners listen?
It's weird when I look at Des Linden's marathon progression I don't see a multiple minute time improvement when she started wearing carbon shoes. She ran 2:25 in Houston in 2012, and 2:26 on the warm day in Rio which was really impressive in 2016, and that was in old shoes. Then she ran some more in the 2:26-2:29 range after getting carbon shoes around 2018-2020, but I can't tell when she first wore them. You'd think you would be able to tell based on her times if they make such a big difference.
Her "supershoes" aren't really super compared to the top level ones. If they help at all compared to her previous shoes, it's probably masked by her aging past her peak.
Scene: LetsRun Message board. One thread is occupied by a group of LetsRun Trolls with horned helmets on. Rojo and an anorexic female runner enter. Rojo: You sit here, dear. anorexic female runner: All right. Rojo: (to LetsRun Posters) Morning! LetsRun Posters: Morning! Rojo: Well, what've you got? LetsRun Posters: Well, there's doping and EPO; doping East Africans and EPO; doping and trans; doping EPO and trans; doping EPO East Africans and trans; trans EPO East Africans and trans; trans doping trans trans EPO and trans; trans East Africans trans trans EPO trans Nike and trans; LetsRun Trolls: (starting to chant) trans trans trans trans... LetsRun Posters: ...trans trans trans doping and trans; trans trans trans trans trans trans super shoes trans trans trans... LetsRun Trolls: (singing) trans! Lovely trans! Lovely trans! LetsRun Posters: ...or hobby jogger running times with a thread about dating and relationships with politics and crossfit discussed with title IX, jamin and Nike project doping on top and trans. anorexic female runner: Have you got anything without trans? LetsRun Posters: Well, there's trans doping East Africans and trans, that's not got much trans in it. anorexic female runner: I don't want ANY trans! Rojo: Why can't she have doping EPO trans and Nike? anorexic female runner: THAT'S got trans in it! Rojo: Hasn't got as much trans in it as trans doping East Africans and trans, has it? LetsRun Trolls: trans trans trans trans (crescendo through next few lines) anorexic female runner: Could you do the doping EPO trans and East Africans without the trans then? LetsRun Posters: Urgghh! anorexic female runner: What do you mean 'Urgghh'? I don't like trans! LetsRun Trolls: Lovely trans! Wonderful trans! LetsRun Posters: Shut up! LetsRun Trolls: Lovely trans! Wonderful trans! LetsRun Posters: Shut up! (LetsRun Trolls stop) Bloody LetsRun Trolls! You can't have doping EPO trans and East Africans without the trans. anorexic female runner: (shrieks) I don't like trans! Rojo: Sshh, dear, don't cause a fuss. I'll have your trans. I love it. I'm having trans trans trans trans trans trans trans super shoes trans trans trans and trans! LetsRun Trolls: (singing) trans trans trans trans. Lovely trans! Wonderful trans! LetsRun Posters: Shut up!! super shoes are off. Rojo: Well could I have her trans instead of the super shoes then? LetsRun Posters: You mean trans trans trans trans trans trans... (but it is too late and the LetsRun Trolls drown her words) LetsRun Trolls: (singing elaborately) trans, trans, trans, trans. Lovely trans! Wonderful traaans! Lovely trans! Wonderful trans. Tra-a-a-a-a-a-a-ans! Tra-a-a-a-a-a-a-ans! Tra-a-a-a-a-a-a-ans! Tra-a-a-a-a-a-a-ans! Lovely trans! (Lovely trans!) Lovely trans! (Lovely trans!) Lovely traaans! trans, trans, trans, traaaaans!
Making an erroneous assumption here that Des is a typical responder to supershoes (others have made the same wrong assumption, and it shows up in every thread about supershoes). As you note in a later post, the "average" person might do a couple minutes better. However, that means some will do better and some will do worse. There's no evidence that Des is in the "average" or "better" category; she might just as easily be in the "do worse" group, and therefore might not have been faster at all.
Lol. Name a single elite distance runner who has eve claimed using super shoes to race and train has caused them to "do worse." Let's recall how many athletes in championship races were so desperate to use them they taped over the brand name, and their sponsors INSISTED they use other brands' shoes to remain competitive. Fact: super shoes make elite runners faster, and those with the right footstrike/pushoff reap even more benefits. As with everyone, there is a spectrum based on individual biomechanics, but 3-4% seems very reasonable when you compare before and after times of individuals, race winning times, and record setting times. To deny or even suggest Des "might not benefit" from super shoes is the running equivalent of being anti-vax. These super shoe "debates" are inane and I feel my IQ dropping even as I type this... fortunately I have plenty of IQ points to spare. Good day, letsrun!
this is the reality athletes need to accept. If you want to compete internationally, you have to raise your expectations and work for it. The competition isn’t gonna slow down anytime soon
This will get me a ton of downvotes but this is the TRUTH. If Desi had been a male she would have been like a 2:13-2:14 guy and nobody would hardly heard of her. But because women’s athletics are still in the dark ages compared to men’s (admittedly there has been some progress lately), Desi is thought of as an elite runner. She was never that special as an athlete, but she did have mental tenacity far above average. So the truth offends some of you, but somebody has to say it.
This will get me a ton of downvotes but this is the TRUTH. If Desi had been a male she would have been like a 2:13-2:14 guy and nobody would hardly heard of her. But because women’s athletics are still in the dark ages compared to men’s (admittedly there has been some progress lately), Desi is thought of as an elite runner. She was never that special as an athlete, but she did have mental tenacity far above average. So the truth offends some of you, but somebody has to say it.
More a Brian Sell. Good enough to make some Olympic teams 2:13 guys don’t do that) but not a person outside of their country have heard of.
I totally get this stuff. I look at the HS track times and go man I am happy that I lived when 9:40 could get you to states instead of the mid 9:20s of today. But most years my 16:20 at the state meet would be about as competive as it was 25 years ago. obviously weather makes a big difference in times. At the national level you see the same thing. Track times are getting crushed. XC times are a lot closer.
The super shoes help the elites a lot. I have a feeling they help the sub elites even more where the efficiency is in thing but the legs not breaking down at 20 is even bigger. Plenty of guys went felt good at 20 but the legs cramped up at 22 and I lost 3 mins. So they ran 2:24. Get rid of that leg abuse and pick up a bit efficiency and they are 2:19 runners. But obviously it is all guessing and not an exact science.
OK maybe sort of a Brian Sell, who ran .2:10:47, and that is being generous to her. But maybe I wasn’t quite generous enough. We are essentially on the same page in relation to that.
OK maybe sort of a Brian Sell, who ran .2:10:47, and that is being generous to her. But maybe I wasn’t quite generous enough. We are essentially on the same page in relation to that.
It is just the difference between making national teams and not. In the end they were never medal contenders.
there is a lot of projection here. She is just basically saying back in her day she was like 1200m behind the competition(Paula time was a huge outlier) These days even with super shoes getting her down to 2:20, she would be more like 2.5-3k back. Not really shade as much as an acceptance of reality. If someone like Joan Benoit said she was happy to run the 80s when she could win races and set world records compare to today where even if super shoes let her run a 2:17, she would still be 1k behind the leaders, I would consider it a pretty legit way of looking at it.
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