Since we're on a new page, while the article claims "abuse", athletes who were there have contributed to this thread, and their perspective is much different. Their accounts almost completely contradict the article's claims. They do not claim that the program was perfect nor that the outcomes worked out like everyone would have hoped every time. They indicate that to make varsity requires hard work and dedication - more than what most would be willing to give. From where I sit (based on the article and thread), while it appears to be a bit more intense than what how I would likely coach, there is no way I would condemn this program. There are kids all the time who say that want to be good. Well, that doesn't just happen in running, or anything.
Somewhat off topic, to "pre it" above, I believe it is a bit much to suggest that someone (anyone) can just sell their home and move to a new district. For many people, it simply isn't economically viable. If you or your family could do it, however, good for you guys!
Truth: Saratoga runners do poorly in college. Now being older and having some perspective, I realize this is true. Many of my friends got partial d1 scholarship and immediatley burned out. This is not always true, and many girls did great in college. But I think this was the exception not the norm.
This seems unfair. They take girls who probably wouldn't have gotten D1 interest if they went to hs elsewhere and get the most out of them. If they regress in another environment, that's not on the Kranicks.
The very, very best to have come out of the program - Chmiel, Blood and the other 3 Foot Locker Nationals qualifiers on the 2004 GOAT team, even Goddard going back to the 80s - have all become NCAA all-americans.
Can't imagine there is a hs in the country that has produced better NCAA runners, even if not everyone does as well as they would have hoped coming out of high school
This post was edited 5 minutes after it was posted.
I'm not saying that all was kosher and good as I don't know, but by reading this article, it sounds like kids being really soft. I mean the XC coaches encouraged them to run every day and to not have boyfriends? Oh NO, that's horrible. /s
It might be a little weird, and yeah a coach driving around checking up on people on Friday night is over the top. But, it could be said in a pretty light way to just suggest that if you stay up all night texting your new boyfriend every night, then you probably won't run well or do anything well.
The upperclassman on my college team made it a point to reiterate that "girls weaken the legs" every single week. It didn't stop anyone from chasing the girls, but it was a constant reminder to keep things on the level.
First, there is a big difference in teammates (who were probably not being serious) and a coach.
Second, we are talking about high schoolers here. Telling someone they cannot date is totally inappropriate.
You can tell them the importance of getting sleep and such without telling them not to have boyfriends. (Were the boys told not to have GFs?)
The horror. THe coaches wanted them to run 7 days a week - let's sue.
It cites the actions of girls cross-country coaches, who said discouraged the girls from having any boyfriends or other activities outside of running and urged them to run 7 days a week.
I'm a dad here - admittedly my daughter is quite young (5), but would it be wrong advice for a HS coach to tell a HS girl to not have a boyfiend? Objectively speaking, I can think of very little good that will come from that and lots of bad things.
Actually having them run every day is not a good thing at all. Many professional runners take a day off a week or a day off from time to time.
The body needs rest and recovery to allow the training to take effect.
There is a difference between mandating something and suggesting something. If you mandate something as a coach, then that is different than teammates. But, if not mandating, then it is not all that different. For all I know, the teammates were more serious about it than these coaches. Without being there, we can not know how it was expressed (in a joking fashion or not).
Regardless, the people who went there said that this wasn't a thing, but that the coaches were clear about making running a high priority.
Yes, weight does make an impact in performance. Am I asking you to starve yourself? No. Am I asking you to skip that late night sugary snack? Yes. Any mention of weight these days will get you canceled yet it plays a HUGE factor in performance.
Yes, running everyday could make you better. These days suggesting you workout more than 5 days a week and out of season is considered physically abusive. Forget about higher mileage. Consistency, year-round, is a HUGE factor in performance
Yes, not being distracted with boyfriends can make you better. Psychological abuse if you make that suggestion. Boyfriends want to doink you and take your mind off the goals, why would coaches and parents NOT think that is bad for performance? Not to mention a complete waste of time....maybe the Christian, religious parents would be on board.
Tell your athlete she should have run more last week (as they had agreed to): public shaming.
Coaching a female athlete is a mine field. That being said, the expectations should be set from day 1, in writing, and signed off by the parent and student. The athlete can fall into two camps: the regular performance program and the elite performance program. Let the athlete choose and spell out what each means. That way the athlete can never blame the coach for abuses . They chose the path and they literally signed up for it knowing all the potential risks (injuries).
I will say if the kid is injured don't push them.
There are healthy ways to approach diet and a healthy attitude toward food. Denying a sugary snack from time to time is a horrible suggestion. (Deena Kastor was known to have a glass of wine with dinner regularly).
Running everyday is playing with fire. Days off are necessary. How often is debatable, but in high school it is not a good thing to require it (and pretty sure against the rules to mandate or expect it).
Regarding a person's social life: no coach should be involved. A coach can certainly promote good sleep and rest habits. Lots of adult runners date and have sex and still perform well. This is just controlling and also makes me fear something way more sinister.
What’s really interesting is watching the “Coach Prime” documentary series on Amazon and seeing how Deion Sanders treats his athletes. He would be crucified if he coached cross country. Heck, even if he coached pro runners.
I know nothing about this school or lawsuit, but I was watching this show the other night and it was hard not to see the very stark contrast in what football coaches are allowed to do (praised, even), versus Track and XC coaches.
A wild juxtaposition. The answer to great coaching is probably somewhere in the middle.
After reading this I feel compelled to offer some commentary and perspective.
Personal Background: I graduated from Saratoga in the mid 2000s and was a member of the team for cross country, indoor, and outdoor track, from 7th grade through senior year (yes, 18 seasons total*). I qualified for and competed at multiple state championships across seasons and was part of state championship teams. I can't comment on the totality of the Kranick's coaching since I was there for a small portion of it, but generally speaking the program has remain essentially unchanged from the early 90s until today.
*Note - importantly, in NYS, athletes are eligible to compete on Varsity athletics beginning in 7th grade. So for many schools, Saratoga included, junior high kids practice along side the high schoolers. This was the case for the distance program - girls started in 7th grade and it was essentially one giant team.
Truths/Myths:
Myth: The Kranicks are being sued. No - in fact, the letter is just a note alleging mistreatment, and has been sent to the state governing body. It's possible that this could manifest itself in the future as a lawsuit but right now there's no litigation.
Myth: The Kranicks give or gave performance enhancing drugs. Vehemently oppose this sentiment. At no point during my tenure was this ever even remotely contemplated. Did not hear anything related to it in the years before or after I was there. Per a previous post - the kerfuffle in the mid 90s was from a family that didn't like the program and moved to rival Shenendehowa - you can do some google searching on it but it essentially boiled down to the family being concerned with the intensity of the program and a claim that the coaches provided the athletes with B12 supplements. Unclear how pervasive this was or whether it was suggested offhand to a single athlete. My beef has always been with dumb opposing teams and coaches saying things like "oh they must be giving them something." BS! We would beat teams b/c we worked harder than them.
Truth: Saratoga kids run 7 days a week, essentially all year. This is true. Practice is held Monday through Saturday with an "optional" long run on Sunday mornings. Practices on Sundays and over the summer are provided under the auspices of a public Saratoga recreation program - which while technically is true, essentially functions as an extension of the program. Athletes who have any hope of running varsity understand that (a) attendance makes you better and (b) lack of attendance is not looked upon favorably by the coaches.
I will note though - the 7 day a week regimen is actually not as bad as it sounds. In my mind what is worse is the lack of downtime between seasons. Given that the team is so good, we'd run cross country through late November and then literally immediately transition into indoor track the Monday after our last race (Feds or now NXN). This would repeat itself after indoor season, and to a lesser extent after outdoor track before summer running started up (which, like Sunday runs is a full time committment).
Myth: Athletes are forced to run through injury. Not true. Girls would get injured in the normal course of training. The expectation was that you'd still try hard and attend practice, but not that you'd do things that would make an injury worse. With that said, I realize in retrospect that girls would be training through things they shouldn't. Not because the coaches insisted, but because they didn't provide us with enough perspective that some time off would help. See the Truth section above for between season recovery - essentially didn't exist.
Truth: Saratoga athletics program is deferential to the Kranicks. Won't overly elaborate but they've been able to establish a fairly insulated bubble in which to operate. The immense success certainly has helped but the school overall has let them operate with few restrictions.
Truth: Saratoga runners do poorly in college. Now being older and having some perspective, I realize this is true. Many of my friends got partial d1 scholarship and immediatley burned out. This is not always true, and many girls did great in college. But I think this was the exception not the norm.
Myth: Coaches hate their athletes. Totally untrue. They care deeply about each runner doing well. They've established what in their minds is a difficult and rigorous program designed to maximize each person's potential. I think they've skewed toward overtraining many athletes, but not out of any bad intention.
Overall perpsective: My best analogy is that the team is run like a high caliber college football program or maybe like boys high school hockey in Minnesota or something. This in the sense that it truly is a program - you either commit to it and love it or you're essentially on the outside looking in. Again, now with the benefit of age I realize the coaches were particularly adept at getting younger girls to buy into this mentality. None of us had the background to realize there was any other way. Of course you ran 7 days a a week. Of course you sprinted to to front every single race. Of course you won every dual meet every year. These aren't necessarily bad things - they're just a super intense way to go through high school and sports in general.
I always find these sorts of defenses interesting since it relies on what one person sees and extrapolates it out that no one was ever forced or pressured to run through an injury or do other things.
After reading this I feel compelled to offer some commentary and perspective.
Personal Background: I graduated from Saratoga in the mid 2000s and was a member of the team for cross country, indoor, and outdoor track, from 7th grade through senior year (yes, 18 seasons total*). I qualified for and competed at multiple state championships across seasons and was part of state championship teams. I can't comment on the totality of the Kranick's coaching since I was there for a small portion of it, but generally speaking the program has remain essentially unchanged from the early 90s until today.
*Note - importantly, in NYS, athletes are eligible to compete on Varsity athletics beginning in 7th grade. So for many schools, Saratoga included, junior high kids practice along side the high schoolers. This was the case for the distance program - girls started in 7th grade and it was essentially one giant team.
Truths/Myths:
Myth: The Kranicks are being sued. No - in fact, the letter is just a note alleging mistreatment, and has been sent to the state governing body. It's possible that this could manifest itself in the future as a lawsuit but right now there's no litigation.
Myth: The Kranicks give or gave performance enhancing drugs. Vehemently oppose this sentiment. At no point during my tenure was this ever even remotely contemplated. Did not hear anything related to it in the years before or after I was there. Per a previous post - the kerfuffle in the mid 90s was from a family that didn't like the program and moved to rival Shenendehowa - you can do some google searching on it but it essentially boiled down to the family being concerned with the intensity of the program and a claim that the coaches provided the athletes with B12 supplements. Unclear how pervasive this was or whether it was suggested offhand to a single athlete. My beef has always been with dumb opposing teams and coaches saying things like "oh they must be giving them something." BS! We would beat teams b/c we worked harder than them.
Truth: Saratoga kids run 7 days a week, essentially all year. This is true. Practice is held Monday through Saturday with an "optional" long run on Sunday mornings. Practices on Sundays and over the summer are provided under the auspices of a public Saratoga recreation program - which while technically is true, essentially functions as an extension of the program. Athletes who have any hope of running varsity understand that (a) attendance makes you better and (b) lack of attendance is not looked upon favorably by the coaches.
I will note though - the 7 day a week regimen is actually not as bad as it sounds. In my mind what is worse is the lack of downtime between seasons. Given that the team is so good, we'd run cross country through late November and then literally immediately transition into indoor track the Monday after our last race (Feds or now NXN). This would repeat itself after indoor season, and to a lesser extent after outdoor track before summer running started up (which, like Sunday runs is a full time committment).
Myth: Athletes are forced to run through injury. Not true. Girls would get injured in the normal course of training. The expectation was that you'd still try hard and attend practice, but not that you'd do things that would make an injury worse. With that said, I realize in retrospect that girls would be training through things they shouldn't. Not because the coaches insisted, but because they didn't provide us with enough perspective that some time off would help. See the Truth section above for between season recovery - essentially didn't exist.
Truth: Saratoga athletics program is deferential to the Kranicks. Won't overly elaborate but they've been able to establish a fairly insulated bubble in which to operate. The immense success certainly has helped but the school overall has let them operate with few restrictions.
Truth: Saratoga runners do poorly in college. Now being older and having some perspective, I realize this is true. Many of my friends got partial d1 scholarship and immediatley burned out. This is not always true, and many girls did great in college. But I think this was the exception not the norm.
Myth: Coaches hate their athletes. Totally untrue. They care deeply about each runner doing well. They've established what in their minds is a difficult and rigorous program designed to maximize each person's potential. I think they've skewed toward overtraining many athletes, but not out of any bad intention.
Overall perpsective: My best analogy is that the team is run like a high caliber college football program or maybe like boys high school hockey in Minnesota or something. This in the sense that it truly is a program - you either commit to it and love it or you're essentially on the outside looking in. Again, now with the benefit of age I realize the coaches were particularly adept at getting younger girls to buy into this mentality. None of us had the background to realize there was any other way. Of course you ran 7 days a a week. Of course you sprinted to to front every single race. Of course you won every dual meet every year. These aren't necessarily bad things - they're just a super intense way to go through high school and sports in general.
I'm another Saratoga alum, though I'm from the late 2000s. All of this is spot-on. I wanted to make a few additional remarks:
-The Kranicks' attention to diet is more focused on quality than on calories. Would we get a stern talking to if we ate pizza before a meet? Yes. Did they ever accuse anyone of eating too much? Nope. Never. Actually, they proactively told everyone NOT to starve themselves. And also gave us cake after practice on occasion (to celebrate a birthday, usually).
-They're actually very inclusive, which I appreciated and isn't the kind of thing you'd see in an "abusive" program. So long as you buy into the program (which, admittedly, is difficult) they don't complain about your results. They even stood up for a very slow girl that was being ostracized by a few others by telling the rest of the team that she was working just as hard.
-I'll admit that I, too, overtrained, though this was on my own volition. The Kranicks actually (begrudingly, and years after the fact) admitted that I should've started out in a slower group when I first started running. Once they figured out my uh...unstable approach to things, they put a little more effort into holding me back. Capping my mileage, telling me to think of a time trial they sprung on us as a tempo run, etc. Not sure where the accusations of girls running 60+ mile weeks comes from since I, a guy, wasn't allowed to go over 60.
I'm an advocate of bringing kids along slowly, gradually increasing frequency, total, and intensity of runs, but by high school running seven days a week is unproblematic in any way. Demanding that they run through injuries and prohibiting boyfriends are another matter entirely.
Athletes need rest and recovery. This should be somewhat planned but also flexible.
So no expecting them to show up for "club" runs is not good when that club run is the 7th day of running. This was clearly done to skirt the rules that are set up for the betterment of the kids.
There is a difference between mandating something and suggesting something. If you mandate something as a coach, then that is different than teammates. But, if not mandating, then it is not all that different. For all I know, the teammates were more serious about it than these coaches. Without being there, we can not know how it was expressed (in a joking fashion or not).
Regardless, the people who went there said that this wasn't a thing, but that the coaches were clear about making running a high priority.
The people saying they did not see it does not mean it was not occurring or maybe they just did not get the pressure. A lot of things happen between two people that you will never know about so to claim that your different experience is the whole story is really problematic.
They start’m early in Saratoga. I have a friend who had a daughter in a school up there. I ran in the school’s local PTA 5K.
There was only about 60 runners but a lot of kids ran in the race. At the start, some of the kids went out with me at about 7 min pace. I figured they would fall apart.
About 2 miles in, I was still hearing little footsteps behind me. “The little bastards aren’t going away!” I spent the last mile making sure I didn’t get passed by two kids that looked about ten.😂
I was always amazed at their success. Everytime I saw their track and XC team I thought they were a college team. They were all beautiful, and very mature. I swore they were a small local college. That's how much different they seemed to a typical girls HS program. Very surprised to hear this.
Kelsey Chmiel was a special talent. I used to see her running in the State Park when she was in HS. The way she bombed down hills would’ve made my knees explode. I could’ve coached her to be All American.
Who wants the job of coaching athletes /parents anymore.
Coaching and constructive criticism are now labeled to the extreme as bullying and abuse.
facts like eating healthy and training seriously are now microanalyzed to make sure not one word offended someone.
cancel culture is simply a way to shift personal responsibility on to someone else. a way to avoid personal consequences for personal choices. always the “yes but” deflection.
good luck to anyone wanting to do this job any longer. thankless. This is one of the most successful programs in US high school history. It wants “happy jogging club with ribbons and cupcakes because you finished the 5k.” of course they did things at a high level.
in every other sport you cut the kids that aren’t good enough to be significant contributors. but cross country and track lowers their value by taking everyone. Which opens yourself up to this kind of thing when someone wants to be told that their mere attempt at participation makes them awesome. anything less is not lawsuit worthy and negative national press that can never be reversed.
when the lawsuit is dismissed or dropped or won by the defendants, let’s see if there is an equally long thread of apologies and praise.
I went to a highschool near Saratoga and through talks with some friends on the team and even just on their social medias you can tell they enjoy the Saratoga XCTF program/community. A lot of the “stories” posted on here are just rumors spread by rival schools that didn’t like losing to them year after year and needed an excuse. I will however say that when they won NXN back to back years BOTH years I saw them running workouts in the park just days after with Mr. Kranick biking behind. It’s also worth noting that being heavily committed to a program like that doesn’t really make it all that easy to have a boyfriend in the first place… when you spend all your free time running with the team and also only hangout with the team you aren’t exactly top pick in a school with 700+ per grade. Plenty of them have boyfriends and male friends on other teams within section 2 so that’s a kid of garbage too. At the end of the day it’s not even just Saratoga, NY girls XC is so competitive that you have to run a tight ship and if the goal is to run D1 in the future anyway you might as well get used to that now!
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