No one care about distance running because the “Elites” are unimpressive athletes and watching them circle a track several times at a sub maximal pace is boring. The reason they excel at the sport is partly because they’re tiny people. What other sport could Molly Seidel excel at?
And no, NFL linebackers would not dominate distance running if they took up the sport.
You are absolutely high if you think the only sport higher paying that running with exceptional athletes are in the NFL.
What does your average Kenyan marathoner make? Not Kipchoge, I am talking average? Go look at how little it is compared to nearly every major sport.
You guys are living in a fantasy if you think there are not thousands of athletes in various other sports that would dominate the running world if running actually paid more.
The best soccer players would not lift their little finger for the money Kipchoge makes.
It's possibly the least athletic event there is; those taking part look shuffling zombies
You mean, like most people running a marathon?
The marathon distance accounts for about 4% of race finishers in the US. The most popular distance is the 5K. While most don’t run them at very athletic paces, they’re fun events, often for a good cause, as opposed to Ultras which are ridiculous ordeals.
You are absolutely high if you think the only sport higher paying that running with exceptional athletes are in the NFL.
What does your average Kenyan marathoner make? Not Kipchoge, I am talking average? Go look at how little it is compared to nearly every major sport.
You guys are living in a fantasy if you think there are not thousands of athletes in various other sports that would dominate the running world if running actually paid more.
The best soccer players would not lift their little finger for the money Kipchoge makes.
The reason they would not dominate is because they’re bigger. Distance running is a little man’s sport. Kipchoge is 115. Cheptegi is 120. This isn’t an accident. Team sport stars, the American big 4 especially, are big guys.
It’s because the USA culture of being the best/faster is delusional for anything other than spirits.
look at their cross country, flat golf courses so they can post their fast time, anything that does not involve speed is ignored.
Looks at their endurance athletes, let alone talk about marathon/ultra marathons, how deep is the field on USA scene, shallow as its track track track.
Now they have had a recent UTMB win maybe something will change, unlikely, let’s face it, the site mostly kids track, discussing pro track athletes doping, or someone going how disappointed, there’s not much ground for professional or recreational distance running.
It’s because the USA culture of being the best/faster is delusional for anything other than spirits.
look at their cross country, flat golf courses so they can post their fast time, anything that does not involve speed is ignored.
Looks at their endurance athletes, let alone talk about marathon/ultra marathons, how deep is the field on USA scene, shallow as its track track track.
Now they have had a recent UTMB win maybe something will change, unlikely, let’s face it, the site mostly kids track, discussing pro track athletes doping, or someone going how disappointed, there’s not much ground for professional or recreational distance running.
It’s called having a life. Distance running is something to do for 45 minutes to an hour. No reason to spend the whole fvcking day at it.
Also, it’s not attractive to women. You’re leaving out half the population. NYRR races are almost a 50/50 split. It does drop off at the Marathon distance to about 43f/57m.
Once you get to Ultra female participation falls off a cliff.
That's because with marathon and shorter distances, you can either run them without needing a toilet or there are porta-potties. With ultras, they requiring women to pull down their shorts and pee out behind bushes whereas men can go wherever they want on the trails.
Some women (and men) may view the lack of toilets in ultras as a barrier.
But I know many female ultra runners who essentially pee standing up by slightly squatting, pulling the crotch of their shorts to the side, and letting go.
Also both the Sorokin and Herron, the male and female world record holders for the 24- hour run, have stated they sometimes just pee in their shorts to save time.
So learning how to pee during long runs is just another skill that must be learned.
The letsrun staff seems to take pride in being ignorant on a number of different topics
I don’t object as much to a smattering of ignorance (being so afflicted myself) as I do object to a consistent disregard for the difference between fact and opinion. Long threads full of lspeculation without concrete evidence or logic to back it up. Eg: recent thread on Obama and crack/homosexuality for one of dozens.
That's because with marathon and shorter distances, you can either run them without needing a toilet or there are porta-potties. With ultras, they requiring women to pull down their shorts and pee out behind bushes whereas men can go wherever they want on the trails.
Some women (and men) may view the lack of toilets in ultras as a barrier.
But I know many female ultra runners who essentially pee standing up by slightly squatting, pulling the crotch of their shorts to the side, and letting go.
Also both the Sorokin and Herron, the male and female world record holders for the 24- hour run, have stated they sometimes just pee in their shorts to save time.
So learning how to pee during long runs is just another skill that must be learned.
Some people seem to use running as a cry for help and attention. I ran 24 hours straight. Look at me. Love me love me!!
Why don't you bring your "athleticism" to Mt Blanc and see how easy it is to run and descend 30,000 vertical feet?? Just to illustrate the popularity and enthusiasm the fans in Europe, look at the picture of the finish line this year. ...Thousands of fans, ten deep for miles. Enough to fill Hayward stadium 10x over. (Which Track fans have yet to fill once since reopening) T&F is flailing but UTMB & Hard Rock keep growing in popularity with runners and fans. ... Laughable that LRC dooshes who never broke 60 seconds for 400 meters in their lifetime think that UTMB is not an athletic endeavor. Most couldn't even handle a kilometer of descending without tripping on their uncoordinated selves.
its all speculation but in my opinion if you took the current top 10k runners in the world and had them go all in on ultra training for 3-4 years they would trounce every ultra record.
its not diminishing anyones accomplishments, but its easy to see how the talent pool is watered down in ultras from the shorter distances.
its all speculation but in my opinion if you took the current top 800 runners in the world and had them go all in on mid distance training for 3-4 years they would trounce every mid distance record. its not diminishing anyones accomplishments, but its easy to see how the talent pool is watered down in mid distance from the shorter distances.
It’s because the USA culture of being the best/faster is delusional for anything other than spirits.
look at their cross country, flat golf courses so they can post their fast time, anything that does not involve speed is ignored.
Looks at their endurance athletes, let alone talk about marathon/ultra marathons, how deep is the field on USA scene, shallow as its track track track.
Now they have had a recent UTMB win maybe something will change, unlikely, let’s face it, the site mostly kids track, discussing pro track athletes doping, or someone going how disappointed, there’s not much ground for professional or recreational distance running.
its all speculation but in my opinion if you took the current top 10k runners in the world and had them go all in on ultra training for 3-4 years they would trounce every ultra record.
its not diminishing anyones accomplishments, but its easy to see how the talent pool is watered down in ultras from the shorter distances.
I agree depending on the course. But I think you’re even underestimating the time. Give me less than that perhaps even 1 year of dedicated training and I think the top 10k person would place really, really well at say Western States.
Why don't you bring your "athleticism" to Mt Blanc and see how easy it is to run and descend 30,000 vertical feet?? Just to illustrate the popularity and enthusiasm the fans in Europe, look at the picture of the finish line this year. ...Thousands of fans, ten deep for miles. Enough to fill Hayward stadium 10x over. (Which Track fans have yet to fill once since reopening) T&F is flailing but UTMB & Hard Rock keep growing in popularity with runners and fans. ... Laughable that LRC dooshes who never broke 60 seconds for 400 meters in their lifetime think that UTMB is not an athletic endeavor. Most couldn't even handle a kilometer of descending without tripping on their uncoordinated selves.
Yes, it is hard to understand until one experiences this first hand.
People on here have no idea how much money one can make as a sponsored pro ultra-mountain runner and how switching from being a 2:08 or 2:28 road marathoner is can be very lucrative in this regard. Part of it is the social media attention too.
Even "sub ultra" mountain running is very big in Europe....from events like Sierre-Zinal to Zegama and all the Golden Trail Series, SkyRunning Series and WMRA stuff etc. For me it's not so much about the distance of the race that's a draw (be it 10km or 100-miles), but rather the nature of the trails or the mountain ridge lines. And the community.
Those that just run on the road or track have no idea. To me it is all "just distance running" and it's all hard and hurts as i respect Any Surface and Any Distance and have had the honor of being in a lot of different events all over the world for the past decade.
Don't get me wrong, I love road marathon running and pavement still. But I figured out a long time ago (12 years ago) that a 2:16 wasn't going to cut it to stay "sponsored". I wasn't even on a stipend/salary at Hansons-Brooks with that and a 1:04 half on the roads. I finished midpack at the 2012 Olympic Trials.
Ultra-trail and mountain running have a lot of cross over with aspects of mountaineering, skiing, rock climbing, cycling and just hiking. It's about moving efficiently in the mountains. And what I call "Variable Running economy". There is a certain aspect of mountain culture to all this...which of course usually attracts middle to upper middle class to wealthy people who have the luxury of some-free time on their hands and the means for gear and travel.
There are a lot of barriers to entry and things that make it a very "niche" aspect of distance running as well! A lot of people don't realize the UTMB pack of gear is like 4lbs (that's if you're lucky and have super nice gear....$300 packable rain jackets etc) and that the gradients of the trail often are over 18-20%. But we use $220 carbon fiber trekking poles for that!
I'm going to come on here and tell it like it is. Because I've lived this sport for the last 10 years. 100-milers have never been my speciality and I haven't toed the line of that many honestly (3 starts at UTMB, 1 at WS100, 1 at Run Rabbit and 1 now with TDS). For those criticizing my 100-mile performances and saying how it doesn't prove my point of "faster marathoners doing better at ultras", realize I'm just an n=1 story.....and "n=1" in science is really crappy data and doesn't show anything when it comes to general trends and strength of correlations!
When I started MUT Running in 2012 I was coming off a 2:18 at the trials. A few months later year I was the US Mountain Running Champion (90+ seconds ahead of guys like Joe Gray in a 12km uphill), made 2 USA Mountain Running Teams, and within months had also won the USA 100km Trail Championships. Again, I've never done great at 100-milers specifically, but I've done plenty of solid 50-mile, 80km and 100km ultras and undoutably that marathon fitness and racing and training has correlated directly with success to the longer events on pretty much any surface any distance. Tons of 2:20ish marathoners could start doing well at ultra-trail events if they started more though!
There is a general trend that if you are a sub 2:25 marathoner (As a guy) and say sub 2:50 (as a women) that you can probably do really well at a lot of ultramarathon events eventually. It make take some more hill training and pacing practice on super long runs and dialing in gear and nutrition, but the athleticism and Vo2max and aerobic potential is all there. Generally the top guys winning UTMB nowadays are going to have at least sub 2:25 marathon ability (if not sub 2:20) or even sub 2:15 like Jim. Yeah, sometimes the 2:25 guy, beats the 2:15 guy but they are still going to destroy the 2:35+ types.
My main point: With top sponsored ultra-trail runners you see a lot that have (or could have) run solid marathon road times. It's all aerobic fitness based still.
I agree depending on the course. But I think you’re even underestimating the time. Give me less than that perhaps even 1 year of dedicated training and I think the top 10k person would place really, really well at say Western States.
Ramping up to a trail 100M that fast would probably injure most runners. Ultra elites do 2-3x the mileage and 20-30x the vert of elite 10k runners
its all speculation but in my opinion if you took the current top 10k runners in the world and had them go all in on ultra training for 3-4 years they would trounce every ultra record.
its not diminishing anyones accomplishments, but its easy to see how the talent pool is watered down in ultras from the shorter distances.
I agree depending on the course. But I think you’re even underestimating the time. Give me less than that perhaps even 1 year of dedicated training and I think the top 10k person would place really, really well at say Western States.
It's better to use a marathon time and extrapolate up to ultras. Why?
10km is more like 5km and more reliant on a super high Vo2max and still has some anaerobic component to it (be it only like 2-3%).
However, Marathons are going to have more in common with ultras as they are almost 100% entirely aerobic-based. Fuel and fluid ingestion during the race is also usually required for optimal performance much like an ultra. Not much difference between 26.2 miles and a 50km, right?! Even a runnable 100-miler like WS that goes in 14-15 hours is still fairly in line with a marathon in terms of aerobic demands in a lot of ways.
Finally, those that have shown good potential in a marathon already (not all fast 10km runners!), likely demonstrate decent Running Economy around marathon pace. And within the spectrum of Running Economy speeds, marathon race pace is still closer to any ultramarathon race pace (compared to 10km race pace which is closer to 5km pace). So Running Economy may not be as good for a super dialed and super speedy 5km and 10km runner compared to a more dialed marathoner.
Not all great 5km runners do well at the marathon. And not all great marathoners would totally crush ultras (I obviously think most would and could)....so there is still a really high correlation with success given the aerobic demands behind each respective event. Marathons have more in common with ultras though and the 10km has way more in common with the 5km and half marathon.
it matters not, the modern athletes are based around Greek and Romain military activities, throwing spears or large rocks/heavy metal, or running and jumping or sprinting at the enemy.
The Greek historian Herodotus, the main source for the Greco-Persian Wars, mentions Pheidippides as the messenger who ran from Athens to Sparta asking for help, and then ran back, a distance of over 240 kilometres (150 mi) each way.
The event was incredible, Walmsley and Dewaulter are generational superstars. But, look at the gap from 1st to 20th, the fields are very shallow. Maybe 6 guys could line up with a genuine hope of winning, and no other female was winning, unless something went awry for Dewaulter.
UTMB is an event where a large % of the top competitors blow up and DNF going for the win - look at Zach and Jim's history there, for instance. If Tom Evans wanted to just get 10th he very likely could have let the front pack go and finished. The time gap between finishers is only part of the story.
its all speculation but in my opinion if you took the current top 800 runners in the world and had them go all in on mid distance training for 3-4 years they would trounce every mid distance record. its not diminishing anyones accomplishments, but its easy to see how the talent pool is watered down in mid distance from the shorter distances.
Its all speculation but in my opinion if you took the current top 400 meter runners in the world and had them go all in on mid distance training for 3-4 years they would trounce every mid distance record. its not diminishing anyones accomplishments, but its easy to see how the talent pool is watered down in mid distance from the shorter distances.
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