Weight-training doesn't by itself develop big upper body muscles in women - but with drugs they can develop such muscles - and they do. This has been observed with women's bodybuilding since the early '80's. Before then they looked more like ballet dancers - toned and wiry but not big. We have since gotten use to seeing sizeable trapezius muscles, "delts", triceps, biceps and "lats" on female athletes. That is what drugs have done. What you think is normal or unexceptional is most likely the product of doping.
"weight training doesn't by itself develop big upper body muscles in women"
This is all the evidence I need to not take any of your posts seriously from now on. What an uneducated, misogynistic assumption that is factually incorrect!
Weight-training doesn't by itself develop big upper body muscles in women - but with drugs they can develop such muscles - and they do. This has been observed with women's bodybuilding since the early '80's. Before then they looked more like ballet dancers - toned and wiry but not big. We have since gotten use to seeing sizeable trapezius muscles, "delts", triceps, biceps and "lats" on female athletes. That is what drugs have done. What you think is normal or unexceptional is most likely the product of doping.
"weight training doesn't by itself develop big upper body muscles in women"
This is all the evidence I need to not take any of your posts seriously from now on. What an uneducated, misogynistic assumption that is factually incorrect!
It isn't misogynistic to acknowledge that most women are not as strong as most men, and the reason for that is women don't - and can't - have the same muscle development as men. They won't compensate for that by simply going to the gym - but drugs will definitely help. It is why trans athletes and DSD-male athletes have such an advantage over biological women - they have male muscular development. Before drugs became a commonplace in sport most female bodybuilders were little more muscular than a typical dancer. Steroids changed that. If women could naturally develop sizeable upper-body muscles why do you think many female athletes use - and have long used - steroids and masculinizing drugs like testosterone? You will see a parade of those drugs in every female championship sprinting final today - and of course through all the throwing events.
Was that a reference to me? You don't know me, only my (temporary) username on here. But I can tell you that I am in no way a defender of doping at all, and on TFN forum I am vehemently against doping.
But my approach is different to yours. Whilst I believe doping is endemic in our sport, I also believe that many athletes are clean. I try not to make generalisations too, until I know more about an athlete and their training, their coach, their whole set up.
As someone who has followed Klaver's career since she was 18 back in 2017, who has met & interviewed her & her coach, I am confident that she is clean. She started a weight training programme way before she was 20 (unlike Bol) and as I said, it is her favourite training, to the point that in the past she over trained in the gym and under trained on the track. Some times, an athlete is just 'lucky', physiologically. Just as some are naturally faster than others, some are naturally stronger, or built differently. That's human biology for you!
Your personal defence of Klaver isn't persuasive because you can't know that an athlete isn't doping.
Your personal defence of Klaver isn't persuasive because you can't know that an athlete isn't doping.
But you can? You have said so.
I haven't said that I can know if an athlete isn't doping. Proving an athlete is clean is impossible. But if they are doping some athletes will show signs of it, such as with anomalous progressions, performances that are hard to justify, and sometimes even their appearance, as with very muscular women. All that is to be expected in a sport where doping has become a commonplace.
I haven't said that I can know if an athlete isn't doping. Proving an athlete is clean is impossible. But if they are doping some athletes will show signs of it, such as with anomalous progressions, performances that are hard to justify, and sometimes even their appearance, as with very muscular women. All that is to be expected in a sport where doping has become a commonplace.
Klaver doesn't have progressions that can't be justified. She was a 100/200 runner until 2020 when she focused on the 400 and has steadily improved each year since.
I haven't said that I can know if an athlete isn't doping. Proving an athlete is clean is impossible. But if they are doping some athletes will show signs of it, such as with anomalous progressions, performances that are hard to justify, and sometimes even their appearance, as with very muscular women. All that is to be expected in a sport where doping has become a commonplace.
You HAVE said it.
A few days ago you have written, you detect a doper when you see one.
I wondered how a Femke Bol relay thread was still being bumped. Now it's turned into Lieke Klaver is bigger and stronger than most sprinters so she must be doping. Hilarious. Every time I think the doping dunces around here aren't capable of even more flagrant stupidity, they never cease to come through, just like the duffer who tops it off the first tee followed by a slice out of bounds. Then another. Every time they post in a thread it's the message board equivalent of a shank.
Klaver not only has normal progression she's been frustrated by the lack of progression. Several times she has bemoaned the 400 on Instagram and all but said she's not sure she's in the correct event. Her huge number of followers encourage her to keep going. She became more enthused again when she dropped from high 50 to low 50, and especially when she had the breakout race indoors behind Bol's world record. Outdoor sub 50 followed. But notice how Meuwly has given her more opportunities at 200 and also in the 4 x 100 relay, to appease that desire to sprint.
The Dutch training could not be more transparent. Outsiders who enter the Papendal program like Kielbasinka and Tkachuk are immediately exhausted but impressed. Every training year it's 6 days per week beginning in mid October, including 3 trips to South Africa. Klaver benefitted when Kielbasinka joined. A feature event during practice is a 3-way 200 sprint between Klaver, Kielbasinka and Bol. Klaver wins those races and takes great pride in it. Confidence attaches.
And her confidence was boosted further when they finally figured out to switch her to second leg at 4 x 400 relay, instead of lead where she was totally wasted. Pacing that relay leg by taking it out hard then backing off slightly midstream has enabled Klaver to apply the same thing to her 400 flat races. It's been a huge benefit although not in the Budapest final, where she got rank fruitlessly chasing Paulino and gave away a big opportunity to medal.
I could keep going. It's the difference between paying attention and simpleton cynics who are so intellectually overwhelmed their vocabulary is double digits. Bol herself is an obvious beneficiary of the strength training. Her frame is markedly different than 3 years ago or even Tokyo. But come to think of it, why don't the doping dunces come after Natalia Kaczmarek? After all, she defeats Klaver 75% of the time. I guess she doesn't look the part. She looks great. It would be fabulous if the doping dunces actually looked into this. More shanks. More wasted time. Lance Armstrong indeed lives. Whatever he is doing today, he accomplished something. Doping dunces have no life.
I wondered how a Femke Bol relay thread was still being bumped. Now it's turned into Lieke Klaver is bigger and stronger than most sprinters so she must be doping. Hilarious. Every time I think the doping dunces around here aren't capable of even more flagrant stupidity, they never cease to come through, just like the duffer who tops it off the first tee followed by a slice out of bounds. Then another. Every time they post in a thread it's the message board equivalent of a shank.
Klaver not only has normal progression she's been frustrated by the lack of progression. Several times she has bemoaned the 400 on Instagram and all but said she's not sure she's in the correct event. Her huge number of followers encourage her to keep going. She became more enthused again when she dropped from high 50 to low 50, and especially when she had the breakout race indoors behind Bol's world record. Outdoor sub 50 followed. But notice how Meuwly has given her more opportunities at 200 and also in the 4 x 100 relay, to appease that desire to sprint.
The Dutch training could not be more transparent. Outsiders who enter the Papendal program like Kielbasinka and Tkachuk are immediately exhausted but impressed. Every training year it's 6 days per week beginning in mid October, including 3 trips to South Africa. Klaver benefitted when Kielbasinka joined. A feature event during practice is a 3-way 200 sprint between Klaver, Kielbasinka and Bol. Klaver wins those races and takes great pride in it. Confidence attaches.
And her confidence was boosted further when they finally figured out to switch her to second leg at 4 x 400 relay, instead of lead where she was totally wasted. Pacing that relay leg by taking it out hard then backing off slightly midstream has enabled Klaver to apply the same thing to her 400 flat races. It's been a huge benefit although not in the Budapest final, where she got rank fruitlessly chasing Paulino and gave away a big opportunity to medal.
I could keep going. It's the difference between paying attention and simpleton cynics who are so intellectually overwhelmed their vocabulary is double digits. Bol herself is an obvious beneficiary of the strength training. Her frame is markedly different than 3 years ago or even Tokyo. But come to think of it, why don't the doping dunces come after Natalia Kaczmarek? After all, she defeats Klaver 75% of the time. I guess she doesn't look the part. She looks great. It would be fabulous if the doping dunces actually looked into this. More shanks. More wasted time. Lance Armstrong indeed lives. Whatever he is doing today, he accomplished something. Doping dunces have no life.
This ArmstrongSucks guy is a conspiracy theorist. Double talk, vague accusations without proof, basing it only on prejudices and myths perpetuated by other conspiracy theorists. Women can build muscles without steroids, any time you tear down muscles fibers and gradually increase the load, the muscle will build.
I haven't said that I can know if an athlete isn't doping. Proving an athlete is clean is impossible. But if they are doping some athletes will show signs of it, such as with anomalous progressions, performances that are hard to justify, and sometimes even their appearance, as with very muscular women. All that is to be expected in a sport where doping has become a commonplace.
Klaver doesn't have progressions that can't be justified. She was a 100/200 runner until 2020 when she focused on the 400 and has steadily improved each year since.
2020 50.98 2021 50.98 2022 50.18 2023 49.81
I didn't suggest that. It is her impressively muscled arms and shoulders that caught my attention. Like another Dutch sprinter, who has just retired.
I haven't said that I can know if an athlete isn't doping. Proving an athlete is clean is impossible. But if they are doping some athletes will show signs of it, such as with anomalous progressions, performances that are hard to justify, and sometimes even their appearance, as with very muscular women. All that is to be expected in a sport where doping has become a commonplace.
You HAVE said it.
A few days ago you have written, you detect a doper when you see one.
You phrased it that I should know if an athlete is clean. Is English your second language?
I wondered how a Femke Bol relay thread was still being bumped. Now it's turned into Lieke Klaver is bigger and stronger than most sprinters so she must be doping. Hilarious. Every time I think the doping dunces around here aren't capable of even more flagrant stupidity, they never cease to come through, just like the duffer who tops it off the first tee followed by a slice out of bounds. Then another. Every time they post in a thread it's the message board equivalent of a shank.
Klaver not only has normal progression she's been frustrated by the lack of progression. Several times she has bemoaned the 400 on Instagram and all but said she's not sure she's in the correct event. Her huge number of followers encourage her to keep going. She became more enthused again when she dropped from high 50 to low 50, and especially when she had the breakout race indoors behind Bol's world record. Outdoor sub 50 followed. But notice how Meuwly has given her more opportunities at 200 and also in the 4 x 100 relay, to appease that desire to sprint.
The Dutch training could not be more transparent. Outsiders who enter the Papendal program like Kielbasinka and Tkachuk are immediately exhausted but impressed. Every training year it's 6 days per week beginning in mid October, including 3 trips to South Africa. Klaver benefitted when Kielbasinka joined. A feature event during practice is a 3-way 200 sprint between Klaver, Kielbasinka and Bol. Klaver wins those races and takes great pride in it. Confidence attaches.
And her confidence was boosted further when they finally figured out to switch her to second leg at 4 x 400 relay, instead of lead where she was totally wasted. Pacing that relay leg by taking it out hard then backing off slightly midstream has enabled Klaver to apply the same thing to her 400 flat races. It's been a huge benefit although not in the Budapest final, where she got rank fruitlessly chasing Paulino and gave away a big opportunity to medal.
I could keep going. It's the difference between paying attention and simpleton cynics who are so intellectually overwhelmed their vocabulary is double digits. Bol herself is an obvious beneficiary of the strength training. Her frame is markedly different than 3 years ago or even Tokyo. But come to think of it, why don't the doping dunces come after Natalia Kaczmarek? After all, she defeats Klaver 75% of the time. I guess she doesn't look the part. She looks great. It would be fabulous if the doping dunces actually looked into this. More shanks. More wasted time. Lance Armstrong indeed lives. Whatever he is doing today, he accomplished something. Doping dunces have no life.
All that to deny that Klaver is doping when you can't prove she isn't. It is just as possible that she is.
I wondered how a Femke Bol relay thread was still being bumped. Now it's turned into Lieke Klaver is bigger and stronger than most sprinters so she must be doping. Hilarious. Every time I think the doping dunces around here aren't capable of even more flagrant stupidity, they never cease to come through, just like the duffer who tops it off the first tee followed by a slice out of bounds. Then another. Every time they post in a thread it's the message board equivalent of a shank.
Klaver not only has normal progression she's been frustrated by the lack of progression. Several times she has bemoaned the 400 on Instagram and all but said she's not sure she's in the correct event. Her huge number of followers encourage her to keep going. She became more enthused again when she dropped from high 50 to low 50, and especially when she had the breakout race indoors behind Bol's world record. Outdoor sub 50 followed. But notice how Meuwly has given her more opportunities at 200 and also in the 4 x 100 relay, to appease that desire to sprint.
The Dutch training could not be more transparent. Outsiders who enter the Papendal program like Kielbasinka and Tkachuk are immediately exhausted but impressed. Every training year it's 6 days per week beginning in mid October, including 3 trips to South Africa. Klaver benefitted when Kielbasinka joined. A feature event during practice is a 3-way 200 sprint between Klaver, Kielbasinka and Bol. Klaver wins those races and takes great pride in it. Confidence attaches.
And her confidence was boosted further when they finally figured out to switch her to second leg at 4 x 400 relay, instead of lead where she was totally wasted. Pacing that relay leg by taking it out hard then backing off slightly midstream has enabled Klaver to apply the same thing to her 400 flat races. It's been a huge benefit although not in the Budapest final, where she got rank fruitlessly chasing Paulino and gave away a big opportunity to medal.
I could keep going. It's the difference between paying attention and simpleton cynics who are so intellectually overwhelmed their vocabulary is double digits. Bol herself is an obvious beneficiary of the strength training. Her frame is markedly different than 3 years ago or even Tokyo. But come to think of it, why don't the doping dunces come after Natalia Kaczmarek? After all, she defeats Klaver 75% of the time. I guess she doesn't look the part. She looks great. It would be fabulous if the doping dunces actually looked into this. More shanks. More wasted time. Lance Armstrong indeed lives. Whatever he is doing today, he accomplished something. Doping dunces have no life.
This ArmstrongSucks guy is a conspiracy theorist. Double talk, vague accusations without proof, basing it only on prejudices and myths perpetuated by other conspiracy theorists. Women can build muscles without steroids, any time you tear down muscles fibers and gradually increase the load, the muscle will build.
There is a limit to how much muscle women can build naturally, which is why bodybuilders have used steroids for decades, and so have many female athletes. There wouldn't be a doping problem in sport if this wasn't so.
This ArmstrongSucks guy is a conspiracy theorist. Double talk, vague accusations without proof, basing it only on prejudices and myths perpetuated by other conspiracy theorists. Women can build muscles without steroids, any time you tear down muscles fibers and gradually increase the load, the muscle will build.
There is a limit to how much musclewomen can build naturally, which is why bodybuilders have used steroids for decades, and so have many female athletes. There wouldn't be a doping problem in sport if this wasn't so.
Yet you clearly admit women can in fact, build muscle, so what's the problem here? Klaver is not a bodybuilder and has no where near that kind of muscle mass. Marion Jones was not built like Klaver and she was busted for drugs...so your body type theory is not clear evidence of drug use. Anyone can build muscle if you hit the gym.
I wondered how a Femke Bol relay thread was still being bumped. Now it's turned into Lieke Klaver is bigger and stronger than most sprinters so she must be doping. Hilarious. Every time I think the doping dunces around here aren't capable of even more flagrant stupidity, they never cease to come through, just like the duffer who tops it off the first tee followed by a slice out of bounds. Then another. Every time they post in a thread it's the message board equivalent of a shank.
Klaver not only has normal progression she's been frustrated by the lack of progression. Several times she has bemoaned the 400 on Instagram and all but said she's not sure she's in the correct event. Her huge number of followers encourage her to keep going. She became more enthused again when she dropped from high 50 to low 50, and especially when she had the breakout race indoors behind Bol's world record. Outdoor sub 50 followed. But notice how Meuwly has given her more opportunities at 200 and also in the 4 x 100 relay, to appease that desire to sprint.
The Dutch training could not be more transparent. Outsiders who enter the Papendal program like Kielbasinka and Tkachuk are immediately exhausted but impressed. Every training year it's 6 days per week beginning in mid October, including 3 trips to South Africa. Klaver benefitted when Kielbasinka joined. A feature event during practice is a 3-way 200 sprint between Klaver, Kielbasinka and Bol. Klaver wins those races and takes great pride in it. Confidence attaches.
And her confidence was boosted further when they finally figured out to switch her to second leg at 4 x 400 relay, instead of lead where she was totally wasted. Pacing that relay leg by taking it out hard then backing off slightly midstream has enabled Klaver to apply the same thing to her 400 flat races. It's been a huge benefit although not in the Budapest final, where she got rank fruitlessly chasing Paulino and gave away a big opportunity to medal.
I could keep going. It's the difference between paying attention and simpleton cynics who are so intellectually overwhelmed their vocabulary is double digits. Bol herself is an obvious beneficiary of the strength training. Her frame is markedly different than 3 years ago or even Tokyo. But come to think of it, why don't the doping dunces come after Natalia Kaczmarek? After all, she defeats Klaver 75% of the time. I guess she doesn't look the part. She looks great. It would be fabulous if the doping dunces actually looked into this. More shanks. More wasted time. Lance Armstrong indeed lives. Whatever he is doing today, he accomplished something. Doping dunces have no life.
All that to deny that Klaver is doping when you can't prove she isn't. It is just as possible that she is.
This is an incredible statement.
Let me see, I can't prove Armstronglivs is a domestic terrorist, but it's just as possible that he is.
Track fans are champs of keeping their own sport on the margins.
Football fans seeing a 6'5, 275 lb man run a 4.7 second 40 yard dash: wow, what an incredible athlete! No one tests positive for drugs in our sport [the governing bodies of which intentionally and severely limit drug testing], so phenomenal natural talent is the only explanation!
Track fans: DRUGS DRUGS DRUGS DRUGS DRUGS BAN BAN BAN BAN DRUGS DRUGS BAN
Why? It's like when a hipster's favorite band is on the verge of having a mainstream hit - this thing which was *mine* now might become everyone's! Time to sully their reputation.