Two factors many posters aren't considering is that if Ryun came along 55 years later would be:
1. Access to modern training techniques.
2. Financial rewards of being the best in the world now versus then.
Some posters rightly point out how Ryun peaked early. I think the above two factors would have changed that if he was in this era. The tracks and the shoes are a big advantage to today's era versus Ryun's. But they aren't the only ones.
TRUMP AWARDS PRESIDENTIAL MEDAL OF FREEDOM: Pres. Trump is awarding the Presidential Medal of Freedom to Jim Ryun. Ryun, 73, is a three-time Olympian distanc...
Some years ago, Arthur Lydiard said if he had coached Ryun, he (Ryun) would still have the world records for the mile/1500 . . . in other words, faster than El G.
Drugs were present at all levels. I ran in HS in the mid/late 1960s and the coach would pass out "uppers" before a race. No one questioned the practice.
That sounds really sick -- first, that he did that; second, that no one questioned the practice. (That's assuming that you're talking about prescription-only or controlled substances, although even caffeine pills would seem highly inappropriate to hand out to high school teams.)
Some years ago, Arthur Lydiard said if he had coached Ryun, he (Ryun) would still have the world records for the mile/1500 . . . in other words, faster than El G.
Arthur may have said some crazy stuff, but I don't think that's an entirely unreasonable contention.
Ryun's solo effort was insane...an incredible feat!
BUT again, you're assuming Ryun had 3:25 (or all-time) physical talent. And other runners have essentially solo'd faster before.
We can't say for sure he didn't, but not likely. He had a ceiling like everyone does, and three people have only run 3:26.
Jesse Owens set three world records and tied another, all in less than an hour, at the 1935 Big Ten track meet in Ann Arbor, Michigan—a feat that has never been equaled.
Do you then believe Jesse Owens could have run faster than Usain Bolt if he was competing when Bolt was with same technology?
A key difference is Jesse Owens’ 10.2 100 PB isn’t world class anymore. It’s 6 percent slower than the current WR. Ryun’s 3:33.1 is still world class. It’s only 3 percent slower than the current WR, and it’s better than the automatic qualifier of 3:34.20 for this year’s world championships! And he ran that time 56 years ago!
I find it difficult to believe that Ryun maxed out his potential at age 20 competing as an amateur in the 1960s.
3:33.50 is the 2024 olympic standard...
Owens was running/jumping in 1930's, not 1960's. 10.2 was the world record. You can't say Ryun's times were world class but Owen's weren't based on what year it was. Ryun is more recent. Owens and Ryun were the fastest on earth. (world class)
Ryun was the greatest of his era. Let's leave it at that. You can't compare across running eras because there are too many variables.
Thank you ++++ Pro/organized sport has been around too long to anoint anyone the GOAT in any sport. We have to anoint GOTEs (Greates Of Their Era) from now on.
… I’ve looked at this 100s of times… I’d say JR would run 3:44.2 and 3:26.7 ..without epo; just track surface and shoe tech. JR was as good as any miler of any era … iconically on the Mount Rushmore of goats 🐐
… I’ve looked at this 100s of times… I’d say JR would run 3:44.2 and 3:26.7 ..without epo; just track surface and shoe tech. JR was as good as any miler of any era … iconically on the Mount Rushmore of goats 🐐
that's insane with no evidence (or gold medals) to support it.
Hobbs Kessler beat his junior 1500m record... Ingebrigtsen’s 1600m split from 1600 to 3200m was 3:52.2 in his recent 2-mile world record.
Ryun would destroy Jakob in a championship race. Jakob got out kicked by Wightman, and Ryun had a much more lethal kick than Wightman. Ryun once closed a mile championship race with a 23.9 200!
Ha! I was going to post that same article but you beat me to it. As another poster noted, it's very hard to compare runners across eras, but a 36.4 last 300 in a 3:30 1500 (read the article if you haven't already!) is mind-boggling.
I know there will never be an answer and there is a group of Letsrun posters who see Ryun as immortal, but I don't think he'd be the best ever. He peaked early and was a true physical freak talent. He "looked" stronger and more fit than most other 1500m runners. When I first saw Alan Webb he reminded me of images I'd seen of Ryun.
Alan Webb, to me, was the late 1990's / early 2000's version of Jim Ryun. Freak talent. Muscular. Super good leg speed. Hard worker. Webb ran 3:30 and 3:46 (mile) and 1:43, all in a month span and never found that again. You could easily argue he peaked early as well. He was very much like Ryun and so, maybe Ryun could have been as fast +/- as Webb was.
There are no white boy USA runners who have ever run faster than 3:30. Why would Ryun suddenly be the exception? If you think Ryun is more talented than jakob, do you think Alan Webb is more talented than Jakob Ingebrigsten? He might be physically, but that's not all is takes to be the best.
Kip Keino broke the 3,000m WR by 6 seconds and broke the 5,000m WR as well. He beat Ryun by 20 meters in the 1968 Oly final...biggest winning margin ever.
Are people arguing Keino would be better than Bekele and Cheptegei?! Or the 3,000m WR holder? I doubt it.
Another thing hard to quantify is that Ryun didn't think anyone could run as fast as Keino did in Mexico City to win the gold medal. He thought a slower time would win. Perhaps this was a mental limitation that prevented him from setting higher goals.
Ryun ran 3:51. Obviously, that'd be faster on modern tracks and with better shoes. So, safe to say he'd have been under 3:50 for the mile. I don't find it difficult to make an argument that would have happened. Today, running 3:50/51 is fairly common. Even Galen Rupp did it. There are guys running 3:49 who aren't sniffing 3:25 in the 1500m. Even if Ryun ran 3:47-48, I don't think he's faster than the everyone else. Webb wasn't and he ran 3:46 and 1:43 in the same month.
El G was the best and most consistent 1500m runner ever, and no one really comes close.
Ryun thrashed Keino by well over over 4 seconds when set his 1500 wr at the Coliseum Relays in '67. It was all done over the last 250m. Fantastic kick.
Mexico was an aberration that clearly favoured altitude athletes like Keino. It's a poor comparison of their talents.
Ryun had been sick and Keino definitely had the advantage running at altitude, but despite the altitude Keino still ran the second fastest time ever, behind Ryun's WR. It was an extraordinary performance, and I don't know if anyone even now has run faster at 7000 ft. I thought Ryun was one of the greatest ever, at his peak a much superior runner to Keino, but I'm not sure he could have beaten Keino on that particular day even at sea level and in peak form -- but we'll never know.
"Ryun drew up alongside Keino and then exploded. Despite the fast pace he ran the next 200m in 26.1. He tied up slightly in the finishing straight (13.5 for the last 100m) but he still opened up a four-second gap on Keino (3:37.2) in less than 300 metres and took over two and a half seconds off Elliott’s celebrated world record – the biggest margin of any 1500m or mile record in the whole of the IAAF era which started in 1912".
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
Ryun would destroy Jakob in a championship race. Jakob got out kicked by Wightman, and Ryun had a much more lethal kick than Wightman. Ryun once closed a mile championship race with a 23.9 200!
Ha! I was going to post that same article but you beat me to it. As another poster noted, it's very hard to compare runners across eras, but a 36.4 last 300 in a 3:30 1500 (read the article if you haven't already!) is mind-boggling.
Is this what you meant to write? Because that obviously never happened.
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