He’s currently entered in the 800m at U20’s, and the 1500m at USA’s.
Here is one suggested strategy for Birnbaum at USA’s:
Run the 1500m Senior 1st Round on Day 1, and try and get the World Standard time in that heat. If successful, scratch the 800m U20 attempt, and totally focus on the 1500m Senior final.
It is a small chance, but not zero chance, Birnbaum makes the Budapest team. However, the final will likely be a tactical affair. If he were in it lacking the World standard, he would probably be the guinea pig chasing it and get kicked-down by at least 3 others, missing the team.
Therefore, he needs to get the World Standard in the 1st Round, so that he can then take a shot in a kicker’s race in the Final.
Conversely, if Birnbaum does not get the World Standard in the preliminary round, his chances of going to Budapest greatly diminish at that point, so he can then make a decision to focus on the U20 800m, instead.
There is another point to consider. Suppose Birnbaum advances in the Senior race prelim, without running the World Standard? He could still try and make top 3 in a kicker’s-race final, and then try and run the World Standard before the qualification window closes on July 30.
After today's big race at Nike Outdoor Nationals, I believe Simeon Birnbaum has cemented himself into an elite category of the top 10 great high school distance runners.
I've made a list of my Top 25 and would like to hear the people of LetsRun's feedback:
1. Jim Ryun
2. Gerry Lindgren
3. Dathan Ritzenhein
4. Alan Webb
5. Craig Virgin
6. Lukas Verzbicas
7. Colin Sahlman
8. Nico Young
9. Simeon Birnbaum
10. Galen Rupp
11. German Fernandez
12. Drew Hunter
13. Lex Young
14. Leo Young
15. Hobbs Kessler
16. Rudy Chapa
17. Edward Cheserek
18. Jeff Nelson
19. Marty Liqouri
20. Grant Fisher
21. Eric Hulst
22. Chris Solinsky
23. Steve Prefontaine
24. Casey Clinger
25. Gary Martin
Honorable Mention
- Thom Hunt
- Bill McChesney
- Aaron Sahlman
- Connor Burns
- Ryan Hall
- Chris Derrick
- Futsum Zeinasellasie
- Rocky Hansen
Had some fun researching and developing this list, feel free to leave some suggestions as in no means is it perfect. I always appreciate some feedback. Thank you all, Happy Father's Day.
You’d be better to not rank them. Because some of these are out of wack. I have a problem with much of them.
But … Casey Clinger isn’t top 100. Every dude in your honorable mention is better by far.
Casey Clinger...I had a problem with that one as well. Not sure he would even be on the honorable mention list.
After today's big race at Nike Outdoor Nationals, I believe Simeon Birnbaum has cemented himself into an elite category of the top 10 great high school distance runners.
I've made a list of my Top 25 and would like to hear the people of LetsRun's feedback:
1. Jim Ryun
2. Gerry Lindgren
3. Dathan Ritzenhein
4. Alan Webb
5. Craig Virgin
6. Lukas Verzbicas
7. Colin Sahlman
8. Nico Young
9. Simeon Birnbaum
10. Galen Rupp
11. German Fernandez
12. Drew Hunter
13. Lex Young
14. Leo Young
15. Hobbs Kessler
16. Rudy Chapa
17. Edward Cheserek
18. Jeff Nelson
19. Marty Liqouri
20. Grant Fisher
21. Eric Hulst
22. Chris Solinsky
23. Steve Prefontaine
24. Casey Clinger
25. Gary Martin
Honorable Mention
- Thom Hunt
- Bill McChesney
- Aaron Sahlman
- Connor Burns
- Ryan Hall
- Chris Derrick
- Futsum Zeinasellasie
- Rocky Hansen
Had some fun researching and developing this list, feel free to leave some suggestions as in no means is it perfect. I always appreciate some feedback. Thank you all, Happy Father's Day.
Good list!
Thanks for not simply going off of performance lists and not having recency bias.
I haven’t been around forever but I’m 40 (graduated HS the same year as Hall, Webb & Ritz) and in my view there’s no one quite like Verzbikas. Won back to back Foot Lockers and a NXN handily, sometimes even walking across the finish line. Broke 4 and 8:30 at will and completely dominated in multiple national track meets. Not number one all time but if you have him outside your top 5 you’re likely underestimating him.
In the mile it is Ryan vs Birnbaum, 2 mile it is Birnbsum/lukas/Young. xc Ritz no question.
Webb doesn’t get a spot in the mile? Fernandez doesn’t get a spot in your 2 mile? Lukas doesn’t get to line up against Webb in XC? Birnbaum is impressive right now but don’t lose perspective man.
I’m not so sure about that bucko. Sahlman had way better speed (1:48.07 vs 1:50) and a way faster mile PR despite going out in 1:55 through 800 and blowing up. Birnbaum might have him over 2 miles though.
So did his brother Aaron (1:48), AND beat Simeon at NXN in course record time against the best field ever.
Troutman is a good one he was incredible. Also missing Bob Kennedy footlocker champ went onto to win NCAA as freshman so gotta believe he would be top 25 all time
Grant fishers hs years are weirdly underrated by letsrun. I mean he's a highschool sub 4 runner(ran 4:02 as a junior) he won two footlockers, was undefeated in xc for his entire junior and senior seasons(19 straight wins). And won two dream miles.
In the mile it is Ryan vs Birnbaum, 2 mile it is Birnbsum/lukas/Young. xc Ritz no question.
Webb doesn’t get a spot in the mile? Fernandez doesn’t get a spot in your 2 mile? Lukas doesn’t get to line up against Webb in XC? Birnbaum is impressive right now but don’t lose perspective man.
Much better list in my opinion. Not going to get into the Ryun debate. Love King Ches but I HAVE to put CS somewhere before him. I'd make a list but 5-10 is always the hardest to rank in my opinion.
I think if you are the absolute best at one discipline you can probably be top 5 worthy but the runner need to be at the very least somewhat relative to all-time peers in other events. Which is why I can never rank Ryun number one unless we are only talking about the mile/1500&800. But all 3 of the first guys I think you could argue could be number one. I'd probably say 1. Webb - overall ultra talented. My favorite runner of all time. Could run all time marks in any distance event over 20 years ago. Staple performance: 3:53
1b. LV - skipped a year and still won like 8 national titles including 3 xc titles all while being world class or world junior class in another sport. Just one of the most dominant runners I've seen in HS. Ran 14:18 as a freshman if I remember correctly. Staple performance: 8:29
1c. Ryun - faster than almost everyone to this day like 60+ years ago lol. Not even getting into world rankings because that's like comparing bill Russell to lebron james but you guys love propping up his world status like kids these days would be racing Yared Nuguse and Jakob Or even remotely. If this was about mid d he's most likely number 1.
4. German Fernandez - world class for his age in HS. No xc title though but for the recency bias bus. All 3 of the youngs and countless others haven't matched his 14:24. Not even taking lightly into account the better equipment and training improvements of today.
Staple: 8:34/4:00 1600m in 2 hrs. No one from 2023 is doing that solo without super spikes and wave lights.
5. Drew Hunter - footlocker
7:59/3:57
sub 4 indoors twice and one outdoors
Staple: in my opinion beating fisher. Showed his promise. Because fisher was already arguably top 10.
6. Colin Sahlman - really good kicker against his peers lol. Everything I like about Birnbaum but with xc performance to go with it.
approached GFs record
Led the fastest us HS xc team ever
14:03 @ runninglane against so many future sub 4 guys
3:56
Staple: Runninglane win? Or pre
7. Dathan Ritz - probably already triggered people putting him this low. I would argue we don't know that he'd beat Fernandez or Verzbicas at XC for sure but he beat one of my top 3 picks in webb handily and has two xc titles. Not going to even attempt to compare the running lane 14:03 vs his state meet.
4:05 8:41 3200m and 13:44 in the early 2000s. Got to be worth more these days
Staple: close to bekele the 🐐 at world xc or destroying Webb and Hall at Footlocker
8. Leo Young - 3:39 approached Fernandez's course record
Would totally have put lex here instead but he has a winning record against him.
Staple: world xc u20 top 20
Staple#2 : dominant against 13:34 national record holder brother
9. Birnbaum - 3:56 8:34 no xc title though
Staple: 8:34 closing in 55. That's tough
10. Fisher - sub 4 & 2 footlocker titles
undertrained in my opinion. Would literally not seem tired compared to his rivals. Watch his footlocker wins. They are impressive.
Claim to fame: two footlockers with sub 4
11ish - lex young or Rudy chapa13:34 vs 28:32 alot of guys on this list don't come close to those times.
Somehow forgot Gerry Lindgren. And that is the only person on this list I've actually talked to before lol. He's definitely top 10. Everything you could say about Ritz can probably be said here in terms of ability but he also ran 8:40 indoors. Would probably bump Ritz and everyone else down one. Had the highschool records 3000m -10k when he graduated. He is one of the 4 on this list I'd say would be challenging Ritz in xc.
Two hard to rank more. Alot of the individuals can be interchangeable 1 or two spots up or down. Again I actually think LV is the best overall but I won't argue against the top 3.
Stop slighting, Clinger went undefeated on the grass for two full seasons including two NXN titles. The only high school runner to have accomplished that feat.
Fisher did the same thing but with Foot Locker, AND ran sub-4:00.
He also lost exactly one race on the track across his junior and senior years — iirc a single second place finish in of the postseason invitationals against the already sun-4 Drew Hunter.
Fisher gets super underrated — probably in part bc recency bias has FL >>> NXN — but he was clearly and unequivocally the best hs distance runner in the country for 2 straight years. He didn’t run as fast as some of the other guys on this list, but he was completely and totally dominant.
All depends on what you value / consider most important (times / wins / etc), but I wouldn’t argue with him being anywhere from 5 - 10 spots higher on the list.
Most of this comes down to understanding how talented a runner is. The truth is the runners you mention don't compare and would lose badly to the guys listed below. Especially Colin Sahlman.
-Edward Cheserek would never go all out unless someone pushed him, but he is a lot better than his times says he was (he ended up winning ncaa his freshman year). The only time he was pushed was his junior year footlocker he and Futsum could have ran low 14:40s at footlocker if it wasn't such a tactical race.
-German Fernandez would run crazy times solo. Running 4:00 then 8:35 two hours later by yourself in fresno winds and heat. German ran 14:25 at woodward park by himself. German was only 40s behind the top kenyan runners at U20 world xc championships (Leo Young was 1:30s behind top kenyan in a less competitive field)
- Simeon ran 8:34 two mile (55 second last lap) then runs 3:37 1500 2 days later, then wins a all-caliber field 2 days later 4:02 (55 second last lap). This just screams that he can run so much faster than these times. He continues to beat guys who have broken 4 minutes, and 8:35 for the 3200.
-Chris Derrick was also 45s behind top kenyan runners at U20 world xc champinoships (far more impressive performance). He soloed a 13:55 at Arcadia by himself (before super shoes).
Chris Solinksy / Adam Goucher - 14:40 at footlocker.
I think it's time for Letsrun to run a bracket, like they did for Greatest All-time American Runners. There have been quite a few of these forum debates about high-school runners over the years, suggesting there's enough interest.
Good idea. For me, there's a big gap between Ryun and Lindgren and everyone else. Those two guys were competing against and beating the best in the world as HSchoolers. Forget time trials, look as races.
He’s currently entered in the 800m at U20’s, and the 1500m at USA’s.
Here is one suggested strategy for Birnbaum at USA’s:
Run the 1500m Senior 1st Round on Day 1, and try and get the World Standard time in that heat. If successful, scratch the 800m U20 attempt, and totally focus on the 1500m Senior final.
It is a small chance, but not zero chance, Birnbaum makes the Budapest team. However, the final will likely be a tactical affair. If he were in it lacking the World standard, he would probably be the guinea pig chasing it and get kicked-down by at least 3 others, missing the team.
Therefore, he needs to get the World Standard in the 1st Round, so that he can then take a shot in a kicker’s race in the Final.
You’re overthinking this. He has no chance of making the team.
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