1) he doesn't have flat out pure speed and any that he had in his younger days is long gone. Watch him sprint and he just isn't fast.
2) he has recreational runner level endurance. His workouts are a joke.
3) he isn't very mentally tough.
4) this combination of things he lacks means he needs to have his very limited skill set line up perfectly just to have a chance at being a low level "sub elite" mid distance runner that is somewhere near 3:40 at his very best.
His sub 4 mile was more than 4 years ago I think.
Why do you guys keep saying he isn't mentally tough? I don't see any indication of this.
1) he doesn't have flat out pure speed and any that he had in his younger days is long gone. Watch him sprint and he just isn't fast.
2) he has recreational runner level endurance. His workouts are a joke.
3) he isn't very mentally tough.
4) this combination of things he lacks means he needs to have his very limited skill set line up perfectly just to have a chance at being a low level "sub elite" mid distance runner that is somewhere near 3:40 at his very best.
His sub 4 mile was more than 4 years ago I think.
Why do you guys keep saying he isn't mentally tough? I don't see any indication of this.
He has decent speed. If you watch the Beasts vid from a couple of years back where they do 150s he looked decent.
I think the issues are training related and mental. He is trying to do Norwegian style training, but with low volume. How can anybody think that will work? The whole idea is built on high volume.
Mentally I think he is missing that winner mindset. Maybe he can get it back. If you watch the 3:55 again I think you can see him drop it down a gear at around the 1200m mark. It’s subtle but I think it is there. If you can’t bury yourself in races then you’ve got no chance of doing the type of workouts necessary to get to where you want to be. You just can’t maximise talent.
A guy like him isn’t built to train alone. Find a group Spence.
He has decent speed. If you watch the Beasts vid from a couple of years back where they do 150s he looked decent.
I think the issues are training related and mental. He is trying to do Norwegian style training, but with low volume. How can anybody think that will work? The whole idea is built on high volume.
Mentally I think he is missing that winner mindset. Maybe he can get it back. If you watch the 3:55 again I think you can see him drop it down a gear at around the 1200m mark. It’s subtle but I think it is there. If you can’t bury yourself in races then you’ve got no chance of doing the type of workouts necessary to get to where you want to be. You just can’t maximise talent.
A guy like him isn’t built to train alone. Find a group Spence.
Totally agree with all of this. I’m a fan. You can nitpick about approaches (his dad left speed alone way too long; Ari is a mess—he’s always injured, he injured Allie, see Spencer’s season), but the biggest issue he has is the absence of a group. It’s hard for anyone to train alone and Spencer is particularly ill-equipped for it. It’s not a knock against him—everyone is different and he just happens to do best in a group. He really only has one more year of this left in him at the most at this point though. I hope he makes good use of it.
1) he doesn't have flat out pure speed and any that he had in his younger days is long gone. Watch him sprint and he just isn't fast.
2) he has recreational runner level endurance. His workouts are a joke.
3) he isn't very mentally tough.
4) this combination of things he lacks means he needs to have his very limited skill set line up perfectly just to have a chance at being a low level "sub elite" mid distance runner that is somewhere near 3:40 at his very best.
His sub 4 mile was more than 4 years ago I think.
Why do you guys keep saying he isn't mentally tough? I don't see any indication of this.
The fact that he always says he feels burnt out after 2 races, the fact that he changes training methods completely every year when he doesn't get the immediate success he wants, the fact that he only runs 60 miles/week despite having no job other than YouTube. These are all signs that Spencer doesn't have the mental toughness to succeed at a high level. If he was truly mentally tough he would've stuck with his dad's training for another year but added in lifting and a little speed work early in the block.
He sucked under his dad too. Spencer just isn't an aerobic monster, so he needs to stop training like one.
He did not suck under his dad. He ran 7:58 for 3k, which is 13 seconds faster than he ever did before, and ran a tactical 3:42 in the 1500. He also would've ran 3:40 at Bryan Clay if he didn't get tripped, which would've been his 2nd fastest 1500 ever. If he had given his dad's training another year, but this time adding lifting and a little speed work in the fall and winter, he could've gotten in shape to run a PR in the 1500.
So he ran a PR in an off-event that would have been good for a high schooler, and 3 seconds off his PR in his best race. You can say "oh he got tripped" but that wasn't his only race of the season, he ran 3:45 in his last race where he faded hard for 3rd. That sucks.
I would have thought Spence would have been smart and seen that training aerobic stuff all year was holding him back. Nope, he doubled down and said "let me train ever SLOWER and LESS SPECIFIC for my event" and now he's running 3:55. I agree with others that he should run higher mileage (70-80 mpw), but that just needs to be just a single training block early to support the next phases of his training, not be the entire focus all year.
I think Spencer is a hard guy to train. He is obsessed with being a miler, but he doesn’t have the aerobic system to be successful at it.
Mackey’s guys all had highly developed aerobic systems so they could build and not need to go to the well so much.
His dad was a marathoner and obsessed with Spencer getting stronger, but maybe some guys aren’t built that way. It’s a myth that you just take fast guys and build them aerobically into success. His Dad’s training and his skills were mismatched IMO.
He’s quick and doesn’t like high volume. The best place for him is in a 400/800 style group. At least he’d be having fun.
My runs and workouts leading up to my 1500m race this week, and my dad's thoughts on my current training approach.Go to https://athleticgreens.com/theathlete...
I think Spencer is a hard guy to train. He is obsessed with being a miler, but he doesn’t have the aerobic system to be successful at it.
Mackey’s guys all had highly developed aerobic systems so they could build and not need to go to the well so much.
His dad was a marathoner and obsessed with Spencer getting stronger, but maybe some guys aren’t built that way. It’s a myth that you just take fast guys and build them aerobically into success. His Dad’s training and his skills were mismatched IMO.
He’s quick and doesn’t like high volume. The best place for him is in a 400/800 style group. At least he’d be having fun.
He's obsessed with being a miler because that is his strongest event and the best chance for him to make the trials. I don't see him having success in a 400/800 training system at this stage because it would be a big shift and I'm not sure how much room for growth there is on his speed relative to the injury risk. As to his "underdeveloped aerobic system," he ran 4 seasons of collegiate xc so I'm not sure how much more developed he needs to be. He strikes me as a guy sort of like Michael Stember, who had better speed but was also aerobically more limited. Again, Stember had good PRs at other distances but was only Olympic caliber at 1500 so he had to make that work. Maybe Spence can reach out to Vin and ask him for his early 2000s training logs but I recall that Stember and Gabe Jennings both ran serious mileage, even though they were 800/1500 guys.
I think Spencer is a hard guy to train. He is obsessed with being a miler, but he doesn’t have the aerobic system to be successful at it.
Mackey’s guys all had highly developed aerobic systems so they could build and not need to go to the well so much.
His dad was a marathoner and obsessed with Spencer getting stronger, but maybe some guys aren’t built that way. It’s a myth that you just take fast guys and build them aerobically into success. His Dad’s training and his skills were mismatched IMO.
He’s quick and doesn’t like high volume. The best place for him is in a 400/800 style group. At least he’d be having fun.
He's obsessed with being a miler because that is his strongest event and the best chance for him to make the trials. I don't see him having success in a 400/800 training system at this stage because it would be a big shift and I'm not sure how much room for growth there is on his speed relative to the injury risk. As to his "underdeveloped aerobic system," he ran 4 seasons of collegiate xc so I'm not sure how much more developed he needs to be. He strikes me as a guy sort of like Michael Stember, who had better speed but was also aerobically more limited. Again, Stember had good PRs at other distances but was only Olympic caliber at 1500 so he had to make that work. Maybe Spence can reach out to Vin and ask him for his early 2000s training logs but I recall that Stember and Gabe Jennings both ran serious mileage, even though they were 800/1500 guys.
I think Spence is a true MD guy, equally good in both the 8/15 with a slight edge in the 15. He's the Makhloufi, Seb Coe, Andrew Wheating, Jake Wightman, Cheriyuot type, not the Jakob or El-G type. Figure out what the former are doing, and write up a plan that resembles theirs. His endurance will always be a limiting factor compared to other runners, so he should work on that aspect but not let it be the focus. His speed is what got him to 1:49/3:39
I think Spencer is a hard guy to train. He is obsessed with being a miler, but he doesn’t have the aerobic system to be successful at it.
Mackey’s guys all had highly developed aerobic systems so they could build and not need to go to the well so much.
His dad was a marathoner and obsessed with Spencer getting stronger, but maybe some guys aren’t built that way. It’s a myth that you just take fast guys and build them aerobically into success. His Dad’s training and his skills were mismatched IMO.
He’s quick and doesn’t like high volume. The best place for him is in a 400/800 style group. At least he’d be having fun.
He's obsessed with being a miler because that is his strongest event and the best chance for him to make the trials. I don't see him having success in a 400/800 training system at this stage because it would be a big shift and I'm not sure how much room for growth there is on his speed relative to the injury risk. As to his "underdeveloped aerobic system," he ran 4 seasons of collegiate xc so I'm not sure how much more developed he needs to be. He strikes me as a guy sort of like Michael Stember, who had better speed but was also aerobically more limited. Again, Stember had good PRs at other distances but was only Olympic caliber at 1500 so he had to make that work. Maybe Spence can reach out to Vin and ask him for his early 2000s training logs but I recall that Stember and Gabe Jennings both ran serious mileage, even though they were 800/1500 guys.
I don't know enough about his HS training but I think you could make an argument that he should have been a 800 guy who dabbles in the 1500m. His legit (no relay crap) low 49 as a scrawny kid should have turned into a 48 low after some maturity and strength work and turned him into a 1:47/3:39 guy. Especially if he can only handle 60mpw.
"Your dad doesn’t believe in instant results. He believes in results 😂"
That part may have been the stupidest thing Spencer has ever done/said, even if said partially in joke [replying to his dad's apprehension about his current training with "oh you prefer instant results??"]
1) Firstly it just not true - we saw Spencer's training under his Dad, it was a long build grounded in good strength work 2) At least it got results. His Dad's training got him his only real post-collegiate results. Compare that to whatever else Spencer has been bouncing between 3) The hypocrisy, from someone who changes philosophies and approaches every couple months because he doesn't see an instant result or translation into his next race. This of course too from someone who for the large part doesn't even understand the current training and is getting 3rd hand knowledge from his college friend
I realise this all isn't maybe that deep, but Spencer is not the hard working robust athlete he thinks he is. He runs low mileage despite not having a job, has little-to-no training direction, preaches 'trust the process' but never does, sandbags and makes excuses incessantly, and has burnt key years of his running career messing about and acting up for YouTube videos*. It's only a matter of time before he comes back to his dad asking for help again because he had a poor track season...again. The comeback to his dad was just so pathetically hypocritical. *I'm not saying competitive running and youtube can't mix, but Spencer, likes some others, has gotten caught up constantly trying to do flashy workouts or stupid things (Mario vid) just to keep people engaged, instead of focusing on the bread and butter stuff.
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I want to see the unvarnished talk after the race.
I’m not sure why he always says he feels awful before these races or big workouts. Something is not right in his mental or health aspect towards running.
Here are two critical elements of the TAS conundrum: he ran 49 for the open 400 in high school, with the running form of a marathoner. None of his coaches have connected the dots on this. Doing so would direct the course to fulfilling his potential.
"Your dad doesn’t believe in instant results. He believes in results 😂"
That part may have been the stupidest thing Spencer has ever done/said, even if said partially in joke [replying to his dad's apprehension about his current training with "oh you prefer instant results??"]
1) Firstly it just not true - we saw Spencer's training under his Dad, it was a long build grounded in good strength work 2) At least it got results. His Dad's training got him his only real post-collegiate results. Compare that to whatever else Spencer has been bouncing between 3) The hypocrisy, from someone who changes philosophies and approaches every couple months because he doesn't see an instant result or translation into his next race. This of course too from someone who for the large part doesn't even understand the current training and is getting 3rd hand knowledge from his college friend
I realise this all isn't maybe that deep, but Spencer is not the hard working robust athlete he thinks he is. He runs low mileage despite not having a job, has little-to-no training direction, preaches 'trust the process' but never does, sandbags and makes excuses incessantly, and has burnt key years of his running career messing about and acting up for YouTube videos*. It's only a matter of time before he comes back to his dad asking for help again because he had a poor track season...again. The comeback to his dad was just so pathetically hypocritical. *I'm not saying competitive running and youtube can't mix, but Spencer, likes some others, has gotten caught up constantly trying to do flashy workouts or stupid things (Mario vid) just to keep people engaged, instead of focusing on the bread and butter stuff.
It wasn't merely a stupid comment, it was a butthurt, childish retort. Spencer really just can't handle criticism very well.
He did not suck under his dad. He ran 7:58 for 3k, which is 13 seconds faster than he ever did before, and ran a tactical 3:42 in the 1500. He also would've ran 3:40 at Bryan Clay if he didn't get tripped, which would've been his 2nd fastest 1500 ever. If he had given his dad's training another year, but this time adding lifting and a little speed work in the fall and winter, he could've gotten in shape to run a PR in the 1500.
So he ran a PR in an off-event that would have been good for a high schooler, and 3 seconds off his PR in his best race.
3 seconds off his PR as opposed to 16 second off his PR. Tough to tell which training plan was working better?
Hard to tell if you’re dense or just disingenuous.
If he was training for a 3,000m then it wasn’t an “off event” it’s what he was aiming for. Just as he was recently aiming to break 14 minutes for 5,000m. We see how that worked out with his current coach.
We all know his times have never and will never be truly elite but we can only judge his progress/success by his career to date and there is absolutely no debate that he was running significantly faster when he was coached by his Dad.
He has decent speed. If you watch the Beasts vid from a couple of years back where they do 150s he looked decent.
I think the issues are training related and mental. He is trying to do Norwegian style training, but with low volume. How can anybody think that will work? The whole idea is built on high volume.
Mentally I think he is missing that winner mindset. Maybe he can get it back. If you watch the 3:55 again I think you can see him drop it down a gear at around the 1200m mark. It’s subtle but I think it is there. If you can’t bury yourself in races then you’ve got no chance of doing the type of workouts necessary to get to where you want to be. You just can’t maximise talent.
A guy like him isn’t built to train alone. Find a group Spence.
Totally agree with all of this. I’m a fan. You can nitpick about approaches (his dad left speed alone way too long; Ari is a mess—he’s always injured, he injured Allie, see Spencer’s season), but the biggest issue he has is the absence of a group. It’s hard for anyone to train alone and Spencer is particularly ill-equipped for it. It’s not a knock against him—everyone is different and he just happens to do best in a group. He really only has one more year of this left in him at the most at this point though. I hope he makes good use of it.
Seems like he should be training with Club Northwest. There are some fast people, one guy in particular whose name is eluding me.
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