Short course women's triathlon has never had a GOAT. Nicola Spirig is the closest to it with two Olympic medals. Mostly, its dominant seasons but from many different women.
Long course women have had a couple vying for GOAT: Paula Newbie Fraser, Chrissie Wellington, Daniela Reif
This question will never be answered for women until it is answered in the same way it has definitively been answered for men:
Kristian Blummenfeldt
Who has done it all, over multiple distances, in the span of one year. Nobody comes close to his GOAT status.
Jonny Brownlee is the GOAT for short course racing.
Kristian Blummenfeldt is the GOAT for overall men's triathlon (short & long).
But women's dominance for the GOAT conversation is mostly in the long course realm, not the short course realm (Spirig?) and certainly not all combined (Erin Baker?), like Kristian Blummenfeldt's clear GOAT status in the span of a year, beating the best over multi distances.
Jan Frodeno is not close to Blu's record year.
Frodo is the men's goat rn. Blu has every opportunity to take it over time. Olympic Gold in 2008 (6th in 2012) & then dominated long course for years. & not just Kona -- 70.3s, Roth, all the big races. I love Blu but when you're talking GOAT you have to look at more than a couple of seasons.
Frodo's Kona world record was smashed by 3 people, two who aren't even IM athletes. That's not GOAT territory. Frodo is only the 4th fastest ever in Kona. If Frodo was the GOAT, he would have a distinction that no one else has. He doesn't in Kona. Frodo has the fastest ever IM, just.
Blu's first IM ever nearly tied Frodo's world record. Take the difference (6:41) between their overall record* times and add that to the Blu's swim to level out that bogus Cozumel swim split Blu got. That would tie them on time, giving Blu about a 46:21 swim (not the bogus 39:41 he got). He can swim close to that all out but realistically Blu would probably swim 48-50, leaving him just short of Jan's record. That was his first ever IM, 3 months after winning gold in Tokyo. That's insane. Cozumel was hot, humid and not flat.
Then he crushed Frodo's time in Kona to leave no doubt (no, I don't count "sub 7" for anything, it was a *hit show). Blu is faster than Frodo ever was where it counts. Kona. He doesn't need more Kona races at slower times to prove anything. He'll just need one win there to tick the obligatory box, which is insignificant considering what he did in just about years time (gold / Half / Full titles). He's already much faster than Frodo ever was in Kona.
This phone call btw Blu and Frodo is interesting. Blu calling out Frodo it seems. Ibiza long distance champs is 6 days before WTS Yokohama, which I am certain Blu will race. He will take on Jan while he is on draft legal training. Ibiza is longer than a half IM (30km run), spotting Jan quite a bit in distance advantage. They should meet when they are both focused on the same distance to leave no doubt. Still, Blu seems quite confident at the prospect during this phone call and doesn't seem bothered. So let's see who is better head-to-head with Blu spotting Frodo quite the advantage:
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More bloviating by someone who thinks he has a "nuanced" approach.
I don't have to weight any sports specificity and you again thoroughly embarrass yourself implying that it's almost impossible when Blu just did it. He also DIDN'T do it it Kona against a full field. Blu winning once not in Kona not against a full field "blow away" Frodeno? Please. Give me a break.
Here's another one of your whoppers: "Nothing Frodo did was unprecedented."
Yeah. Sure, if you just ignore being the first person to win an Olympic gold medal and then Kona then you are correct. Let's just comically ignore that.
Your cluelessness was again on display citing Bergere as exhibit A on being a world champion but not being the best at short course. You are aware that there was this race called the Grand Final, which kinda was the biggest race of the year, and the last one and he kinda won it. It's kind of hard to claim that he wasn't the best short course athlete last year when he WON the grand final (in addition to the year long series). Are you going to claim someone he beat in Abu Dhabi actually was better and should have been world champion???
It's continue rot like you post that drags these boards down. Blu has had a great career so far and is in the mix as GOAT but you blindly declaring him the GOAT without question shows how utterly out to lunch you are as there are several athletes who currently and objectively have a better claim to that title even though you want to whine otherwise and seem to have gotten stiff over Blue's year in 2021.
You don't weight anything because you don't know what that means. Or sports specificity and crossing over.
On Bergere 2022, the "grand final" (the culmination of a boring points average over an entire season) could have been won by about 5-6 different people. It's not the Olympics which Blu won. It was a little exciting and Bergere is great for having won a season average with little significance other than consistency. Try an Olympics or a Kona.
You can't tolerate different opinions? Maybe stay offline for a bit. take a walk. Do you some good. You aren't ready to level-up your simpleton take on triathlon. Name calling and complaining won't get you any cred here...
You didn't answer the question. I didn't say that the Grand Final was the world championship. You clearly either don't understand the sport or intentionally misrepresent it. You complained that Leo was the "World Champion" last year despite NOT being the best short course athlete due to the fact that his world championship simply meant that he raced 5 races. You completely omitted the fact that he actually won the biggest race of the year that had EVERYONE in it at the end of the season (so everyone was tapered). He clearly was the best short course person last year but you are butt hurt that citing him as an example was pure idiocy (as is most of what you write). The fact that you conclusively believe that Blue is the GOAT despite only having 1 Olympic gold and 1 Kona with a big asterisk and others have done much more shows how completely clueless and closed minded you are to actual facts. Anyone with even a remote understanding of the facts acknowledges that he is in the mix and is on his way to being the GOAT but he is not there yet. Get over yourself and learn the sport better.
Mo Farah would be a really good analogy to help people not familiar with triathlon understand. Gwen was about as dominant as Mo was at their peaks. They were undisputedly the best in the world at the time, though few would consider them the greatest of all time. But they are both now in their late 30’s and several years past their last great performance. Do we really expect Mo to make the next Olympic team and contend for a medal with younger guys like Cheptegei, Kimplimo and Barega?
No, you still concede the GOAT point to Blu. I was a Mike Pigg, Simon Lessing, AB fanboy before Blu. Raced against two of them myself. Fans of the sport aren't fanboys. We are just people that know more about the sport than you.
For Blu vs. Frodo GOAT comparison, it's not a matter of merely cancelling Olympic golds then adding up what's left over. That's idiotic, void of any relative nuance regarding the sport of triathlon. We get that you are a simpleton-fanboy (since you want to name call) but you will still have to learn about triathlon to have a place in this conversation.
Let me introduce you...
You have to weight appropriately the SPORTS SPECIFICITY required to win at any distance in triathlon now. They are different sports. Crossing over is impossible for most, let alone doing that and winning, let alone in the same year. To win Oly Gold, 1/2 IM world title, and a full IM world title in such a short span of time is unheard of. Then go back DOWN to draft legal racing for Paris. It's all unprecedented. It is so unbelievably hard... it would be unfathomable until it happened.
Nothing Frodo did was unprecedented:
~ People won gold before Frodo.
~ People won multiple Kona's before Frodo.
~ People broke Kona records before Frodo.
Frodo had the Kona record for a minute. Iden and Blu both crushed it. Both are cross-over athletes, not even fully committed to IM like Frodo. That's how good Blu is. Frodo's records are being broken by athletes who are moonlighting as IM triathletes. That is not GOAT material. Blu is faster in Kona. Sure, there are no records in triathlon but I doubt the conditions alone can account for the massive gap by which Frodo's record was broken. What we saw was a leap in the Kona game (assisted by good conditions). Frodo's record also probably had good conditions.
The fact that crossing over in the such a short period of time is so difficult, it lends huge weight and gravitas to Blu. It blows away Frodo's multiple Kona's, easily. How long was Frodo's 08' Gold to his first Kona? There yuh go, sports specificity. Frodo is not in the GOAT conversation with Blu.
Based on what he has done, Blu is the hands down GOAT already. Without at all considering his future. Who knows where he will end. It doesn't matter. He's the GOAT right now.
In fairness, Mark Allen is the next best in the overall GOAT standings for men IMO. He won, what I would argue was the first unofficial Olympics for triathlon (Avignon worlds 89') and then won Kona that year. Yes, non-draft worlds was not the depth or specificity of ITU & IM now but the efforts were relative to the era. With regard to BEASTING it across different distances in the same year like Blu, Mark Allen is also very special. Better than Frodo.
Ali beat Gomez for the best short course racer ever. There was never a debate. podium % and dominance was all AB. Gomez' "World titles" (sleeper fests spanning entire seasons) are worthless when he got owned by AB in head-to-heads and at Olympics. An ITU "world title" just means you went to a lot of races and did well. It does not mean you are the best short course racer, even if you win 5 of them. See Leo Bergere last year.
TLDR;
I am not going to argue since we haven't defined the term GOAT yet. You seem to have a narrow view of what that is.
Based on the 1,284 other "who is the GOAT" threads on these boards, it has been determined that these are the six criteria for GOAT:
fastest PRs (times)
most Olympic, WC, or Hawaii wins and medals (titles)
greatest success across a spectrum of events (range)
biggest domination of his/her competition (dominance)
winning year after year during his/her era (longevity)
reshaping culture of the sport (impact)
Give some smart person time and they can get back to us with a spreadsheet that has the real answer. It might be Blummenfelt but I think there are cases to be made against anyone who has only been good for two years and who lost their most recent championship. Right?
Frodo is the men's goat rn. Blu has every opportunity to take it over time. Olympic Gold in 2008 (6th in 2012) & then dominated long course for years. & not just Kona -- 70.3s, Roth, all the big races. I love Blu but when you're talking GOAT you have to look at more than a couple of seasons.
Frodo's Kona world record was smashed by 3 people, two who aren't even IM athletes. That's not GOAT territory. Frodo is only the 4th fastest ever in Kona. If Frodo was the GOAT, he would have a distinction that no one else has. He doesn't in Kona. Frodo has the fastest ever IM, just.
Blu's first IM ever nearly tied Frodo's world record. Take the difference (6:41) between their overall record* times and add that to the Blu's swim to level out that bogus Cozumel swim split Blu got. That would tie them on time, giving Blu about a 46:21 swim (not the bogus 39:41 he got). He can swim close to that all out but realistically Blu would probably swim 48-50, leaving him just short of Jan's record. That was his first ever IM, 3 months after winning gold in Tokyo. That's insane. Cozumel was hot, humid and not flat.
Then he crushed Frodo's time in Kona to leave no doubt (no, I don't count "sub 7" for anything, it was a *hit show). Blu is faster than Frodo ever was where it counts. Kona. He doesn't need more Kona races at slower times to prove anything. He'll just need one win there to tick the obligatory box, which is insignificant considering what he did in just about years time (gold / Half / Full titles). He's already much faster than Frodo ever was in Kona.
This phone call btw Blu and Frodo is interesting. Blu calling out Frodo it seems. Ibiza long distance champs is 6 days before WTS Yokohama, which I am certain Blu will race. He will take on Jan while he is on draft legal training. Ibiza is longer than a half IM (30km run), spotting Jan quite a bit in distance advantage. They should meet when they are both focused on the same distance to leave no doubt. Still, Blu seems quite confident at the prospect during this phone call and doesn't seem bothered. So let's see who is better head-to-head with Blu spotting Frodo quite the advantage:
Eh, triathlon isn't really about the times. You seem to be into the sport so should know that. We don't really celebrate records because courses & weather vary. Distances are never exact. Sometimes slow times are good because of bad weather. You're talking about Kona times but Blu got beat by two other people in Kona. Weather was on the better side for the men's race compared to past years. Technology has gotten better since Jan went on his Kona run. He's on his retirement tour so we'll never know how he'd fare against the up & comers. & that's what these guys are -- up & comers. Blu isn't the goat because he had one amazing season. He probably will be the goat. Just let him win a few more big races.
You don't weight anything because you don't know what that means. Or sports specificity and crossing over.
On Bergere 2022, the "grand final" (the culmination of a boring points average over an entire season) could have been won by about 5-6 different people. It's not the Olympics which Blu won. It was a little exciting and Bergere is great for having won a season average with little significance other than consistency. Try an Olympics or a Kona.
You can't tolerate different opinions? Maybe stay offline for a bit. take a walk. Do you some good. You aren't ready to level-up your simpleton take on triathlon. Name calling and complaining won't get you any cred here...
You didn't answer the question. I didn't say that the Grand Final was the world championship. You clearly either don't understand the sport or intentionally misrepresent it. You complained that Leo was the "World Champion" last year despite NOT being the best short course athlete due to the fact that his world championship simply meant that he raced 5 races. You completely omitted the fact that he actually won the biggest race of the year that had EVERYONE in it at the end of the season (so everyone was tapered). He clearly was the best short course person last year but you are butt hurt that citing him as an example was pure idiocy (as is most of what you write). The fact that you conclusively believe that Blue is the GOAT despite only having 1 Olympic gold and 1 Kona with a big asterisk and others have done much more shows how completely clueless and closed minded you are to actual facts. Anyone with even a remote understanding of the facts acknowledges that he is in the mix and is on his way to being the GOAT but he is not there yet. Get over yourself and learn the sport better.
The "grand final" is a sleeper. If you can win five "series titles" like Gomez but still not be the best short course racer in history, it's useless. Podium % / starts = quality. Attendance does not.
Blu is much faster than Frodo in Kona. Period. The end.
He was already better because of his year-long assault across distances.
Frodo's Kona world record was smashed by 3 people, two who aren't even IM athletes. That's not GOAT territory. Frodo is only the 4th fastest ever in Kona. If Frodo was the GOAT, he would have a distinction that no one else has. He doesn't in Kona. Frodo has the fastest ever IM, just.
Blu's first IM ever nearly tied Frodo's world record. Take the difference (6:41) between their overall record* times and add that to the Blu's swim to level out that bogus Cozumel swim split Blu got. That would tie them on time, giving Blu about a 46:21 swim (not the bogus 39:41 he got). He can swim close to that all out but realistically Blu would probably swim 48-50, leaving him just short of Jan's record. That was his first ever IM, 3 months after winning gold in Tokyo. That's insane. Cozumel was hot, humid and not flat.
Then he crushed Frodo's time in Kona to leave no doubt (no, I don't count "sub 7" for anything, it was a *hit show). Blu is faster than Frodo ever was where it counts. Kona. He doesn't need more Kona races at slower times to prove anything. He'll just need one win there to tick the obligatory box, which is insignificant considering what he did in just about years time (gold / Half / Full titles). He's already much faster than Frodo ever was in Kona.
This phone call btw Blu and Frodo is interesting. Blu calling out Frodo it seems. Ibiza long distance champs is 6 days before WTS Yokohama, which I am certain Blu will race. He will take on Jan while he is on draft legal training. Ibiza is longer than a half IM (30km run), spotting Jan quite a bit in distance advantage. They should meet when they are both focused on the same distance to leave no doubt. Still, Blu seems quite confident at the prospect during this phone call and doesn't seem bothered. So let's see who is better head-to-head with Blu spotting Frodo quite the advantage:
Eh, triathlon isn't really about the times. You seem to be into the sport so should know that. We don't really celebrate records because courses & weather vary. Distances are never exact. Sometimes slow times are good because of bad weather. You're talking about Kona times but Blu got beat by two other people in Kona. Weather was on the better side for the men's race compared to past years. Technology has gotten better since Jan went on his Kona run. He's on his retirement tour so we'll never know how he'd fare against the up & comers. & that's what these guys are -- up & comers. Blu isn't the goat because he had one amazing season. He probably will be the goat. Just let him win a few more big races.
Yes, there are no real records in triathlon but there are loose records none the less. When you beat a loose record by so much time, there is no doubting. It is beyond conditions.
The weather was on the "better side" when Frodo got his loose Kona record as well.
No, Blu is the GOAT.
It took Frodo 11 years to get from gold to his Kona record. It took Blu just over a year from gold to obliterating Frodo's Kona record.
Only 89' Mark Allen comes close to Blu's feat. His Avignon world title and Iron war were 2 months apart! MA has a ton more Kona's than Frodo. MA was undefeated in Nice, 10 years. He was crushing short course too. I'd take MA over Frodo for overall GOAT as well.
This post was edited 8 minutes after it was posted.
Reason provided:
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Superbikes, superbikes...cooling fabrics, etc. It ain't too hard to see why IM records get broken. Remember, there was a time when people thought Kienle would be unbeatable.
Nah, she has sponsors....Cannondale, Polar, Training Peaks, Silca, some others. In a time when even top triathletes have been getting dropped by sponsors, that's not bad after 7 years away.
Tim ain't riding a huffy with drop bars and running in flapping basketball shorts. Poor Tim/Jan, having their equipment choices blocked by Iden, Blu, and Laidlow who are all MUCH faster in Kona.
Jan set his IM bike course record on a superbike in 2021, doofus.
We all know what Norway has been doing for years PHYSICALLY. Start your excuses there, equipment. You don't win gold and multiple long titles in a years time because equipment.
Blu's torso size is a cheat code. Heart size, lung capacity... he's freakishly endowed. Iden is not. They come from an exceptional program. That sprint from 1k out in Tokyo, not equipment. But Blu is freakishly heavy. Blu is the Pillsbury dough boy out there crushing. It's nutz. What is the dude's BMI? He is handicapped at every race he does and yet he is the GOAT. It's unreal stuff. 6 or 7 years in Yokohama, his first race sniffing WTS success, I watched him run by me with Mola. They were together for the first 5k, just the two of them off the front, before Blu faded. Whuh the fuq?! Who is the pudge ball with the fastest runner in triathlon? You have to see it to believe it. Not at IM slog pace, but ITU speed.
You *hit on people doing great things. We get it.
So.... Tim sucks with great equipment. Jan is great with great equipment.
Nah, she has sponsors....Cannondale, Polar, Training Peaks, Silca, some others. In a time when even top triathletes have been getting dropped by sponsors, that's not bad after 7 years away.
That explains your bitterness.
Take your life lumps. Everyone gets old, slower, and ultimately insignificant. Sponsors like bright shiny things. They like Blu and Iden, PTO rank #1 & 2
Also interesting... do we count Blummenfelt's bad years against him? For example, I still hold Mo Farah's half-decade of "average results" against him when people try to insert him into the GOAT Runner conversation.
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