It's Nick Willis. He was probably helped by racing against PED users though. Better competition equates to faster results. If they were all clean then someone with a faster result could perhaps beat Willis'clean time.
Why Willis? I understand he’s well liked around here, but even if you subscribe to the Coevett principle that everyone of African descent is doping, and discount Jakob for being unbelievably fast, why is Willis the limit and not Kerr, Wightman or McSweyn? I’d love to hear your reasoning.
As to your original question, I would love be believe it’s Lagat but it’s hard to not be skeptical.
Wrong he used EPO and got away with it i have verification from a very reliable inside source and I'd bet 100k on it if God could answer as judge.
I said I would love to believe it but I’m skeptical, implying (I thought very clearly), that I didn’t think it was clean. But I will anxiously await the reveal of your source and the trial with God to turn my skepticism into fact.
Wrong he used EPO and got away with it i have verification from a very reliable inside source and I'd bet 100k on it if God could answer as judge.
I said I would love to believe it but I’m skeptical, implying (I thought very clearly), that I didn’t think it was clean. But I will anxiously await the reveal of your source and the trial with God to turn my skepticism into fact.
There have been over 1,000,000 EPO tests administered worldwide in the last 30 years. Only four have returned positive A samples and negative B samples. Two in athletics ((Lagat and Marion Jones) and two in cycling. In 3 of those 4 cases the athlete was later confirmed doping amd banned.
Lagat is truly a 1 in a million billion athlete.
The only case in a million of a clean athlete with a positive A sample
One of only 3 out of the 10 billuon or so individuals on planet Earth over the last 30 years to run 3:26.
It's like winning the lottery a million times in a row. Of course the dude is clean, Probably even cleaner than Shelby.
Moments of Truth: Sports - Vol. 17The true wide wide world of sports...From Football to Cricket to Waterpolo, come look at some of the most exciting pastimes...
testosterone was only banned in 1975, so anyone taking it before was not breaking any rules, so I can understand that many probably did use. However, from Montreal in 76, athletes were randomly tested at major Champs/events. I recall the 2 leading middle distance women in the world at the time (Petrova over 800m and Maracescu - the mile WR holder) were caught and banned for steroids when tested at the Balkan Games in 79.
Then in 83, the test for steroids improved and several were caught out at the Pan-Am games. By this time there was some testing on the European Circuit and some nations were testing their athletes regularly.
Of course the testing was not as rigorous and widespread as it has been since the ABP, but I would suggest there were more athletes using steroids in the early/ mid 70's than in the 80's.
Not to be cynical, but a lot of these times are suspicious. In fact, several of these guys have been outright busted for PEDs.
So, knowing what we know, of all the guys who have broken 3:30, who do you think has the clean world record? And why. You don't have to tell me who you think is dirty, just your vote for clean world record holder. And if you think all these guys are dirty, just say, "none."
1 3:26.0 Hicham EL GUERROUJ 2 3:26.3 Bernard LAGAT 3 3:26.7 Asbel KIPROP 4 3:27.4 Noureddine MORCELI 5 3:27.6 Silas KIPLAGAT 6 3:28.1 Noah NGENY 7 3:28.3 Timothy CHERUIYOT 8 3:28.3 Jakob INGEBRIGTSEN 9 3:28.7 Taoufik MAKHLOUFI 10 3:28.8 Mohamed KATIR 11 3:28.8 Abdelaati IGUIDER 12 3:28.8 Elijah Motonei MANANGOI 13 3:28.8 Mo FARAH 13 3:28.8 Ronald KWEMOI 15 3:28.9 Fermín CACHO 16 3:29.0 Mehdi BAALA 17 3:29.0 Daniel Kipchirchir KOMEN 18 3:29.0 Josh KERR 19 3:29.1 Rashid RAMZI 20 3:29.2 Vénuste NIYONGABO 21 3:29.2 Jake WIGHTMAN 22 3:29.3 William CHIRCHIR 23 3:29.5 Saïd AOUITA 23 3:29.5 Daniel KOMEN 25 3:29.5 Augustine Kiprono CHOGE 26 3:29.5 Caleb Mwangangi NDIKU 27 3:29.5 Ali SAIDI-SIEF 27 3:29.5 Stewart MCSWEYN 29 3:29.5 Amine LAALOU 30 3:29.6 Abel KIPSANG 31 3:29.6 Ayanleh SOULEIMAN 32 3:29.7 Nick WILLIS 33 3:29.7 Steve CRAM 34 3:29.8 Sydney MAREE 34 3:29.8 Sebastian COE
Noah Ngeny is the first guy I go better than 50-50 clean. Kiplagat I have at pretty much 50-50. First four are around 20-80 or worse for me.
Have to say I think Ngeny's career projection represents one of the more obvious dopers from the list. All his super fast times were run prior to an EPO test existing.
Just look at his 1999 season!
13.06.1999 Villeneuve d`Ascq IAAF-Permit 1500m 3:31,12 (1.) +2,33s; 16.06.1999 Athína 1500m 3:31,32 (1.) +0,82s; 02.07.1999 Lausanne Athlétissima / GP 1500m 3:31,18 (1.) +2,72s; 07.07.1999 Roma Golden Gala / Golden League 1 Mile 3:43,40 (2.) -0,27s; 17.07.1999 Nice NIKAIA / GP 1000m 2:12,66 (1.) AR / +0,90s; 21.07.1999 Paris Gaz de France / Golden League 1500m 3:28,84 (1.) NR / +2,07s; 30.07.1999 Stockholm Dagens Nyheter Galan / GP 2000m 4:50,08 (1.) +5,12s; 04.08.1999 Monaco Herculis / Golden League 1500m 3:29,79 (1.) +0,82; 11.08.1999 Zürich Weltklasse in Zürich / Golden League 1500m 3:30,28 (2.) -1,71s; 24.08.1999 Sevilla World Championships 1500m 3:28,73 (2.) NR / -1,08s; 03.09.1999 Bruxelles Memorial Van Damme / Golden League 1500m 3:29,19 (1.) +2,90s; 05.09.1999 Rieti (ITA) Rieti Meeting 1000m 2:11,96 (1.) WR / +2,45s; 11.09.1999 München Grand Prix Final 1500m 3:28,93 (1.) +3,37s 13 races with 'super fast time'. The longest 'rest' period between any two of those 13 races was 2 weeks. 5 of them occurred within just over 3 weeks! This intensity of fast races and quick recovery in a 20 year old who had only started running 3 years earlier is not possible without some heavy drug programme. His series of fast times is only matched by the likes of EL G and Komen, who were also competing at the same time; an era with no test for EPO. And we know now that Kenyans weren't being tested out of competion until only a few years ago.
Ngeny's meteoric rise continued until the 2000 Olympics and then ended in 2001 just before the new EPO test was rolled out across the circuit. Strangely he was withdrawn from the Kenyan team prior to the World Champs and prior to his 'car accident', which is what is cited as the cause of his decline. Allegedly he was no longer able to do the training required for fast times. However he still managed to run some 3:32's/ 3:33's, which also seems a bit odd.
None of the above. 3:30 is not achievable naturally. They run 3:34-3:35 naturally and then start doping. If you think I’m crazy you don’t know the sport and human body well.
This is nutty. Does that mean John Walker and Filbert Bayi were both doping when they ran 3:32 in 1974? With 1974 spikes on a 1974 track surface without pacers? (which is to say, if those guys were clean then naturally people would have run faster since).
But seriously, the answer is Gunder Hägg’s 3:43.0.
THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:
Noah Ngeny is the first guy I go better than 50-50 clean. Kiplagat I have at pretty much 50-50. First four are around 20-80 or worse for me.
I don’t see this at all. A 20 year old Kenyan who goes from 3:30.3 to 3:43.4y in one year, still the second fastest mile of all time, at the height of the EPO era? Who that same year runs 2:11.96 for 1K with crazy splits of 49.7/1:44.6, coming into the race with a 1:46.5 800 PB and then never running faster than 1:44.49 for 800 in his life? Who outkicks two of your 20-80 guys in El G and Lagat to win Olympic gold? He seems as sketchy as anyone who hasn’t actually been sanctioned for a positive test.
Legitimate question for those who know the history of the sport better than me. When was EPO explicitly banned? New supplements pop up all the time that are at first legal and then later studied more and banned. Colostrum for example is a relatively new supplement that WADA has not banned but they are investigating as it can increase growth hormone. I guess my point is that of course when something is explicitly banned and you take it anyway you are a cheater and should be punished. If it was taken in good faith before being banned is that person really a cheater or bad person? (assuming they stop once it becomes it is banned). Of course those performances are still enhanced, but maybe not maliciously enhanced if that makes any sense. (Probably TLDR I know)
Good question. Testosterone was banned 1975, but tests stated around 1984.
From wikipedia, of 1980 OG, A member of the IOC Medical Commission, Manfred Donike, privately ran additional tests with a new technique for identifying abnormal levels of testosterone by measuring its ratio to epitestosterone in urine. Twenty percent of the specimens he tested, including those from sixteen gold medalists would have resulted in disciplinary proceedings had the tests been official.
EPO 2004 banned by WADA, IOC earlier.
"Until 1986, the infusion of blood was not prohibited in sport but considered unethical. Erythropoietin was prohibited by the International Olympic Committee's Medical Commission in 1990".
Other sites are welcome to link to this page, but not to reproduce or repurpose our copyrighted content. Please see our reprinting policy for details on how to request permission to reprint ProCon.org content. [...]Read More....
A member of the IOC Medical Commission, Manfred Donike, privately ran additional tests with a new technique for identifying abnormal levels of testosterone by measuring its ratio to epitestosterone in urine. Twenty percent of the specimens he tested, including those from sixteen gold medalists would have resulted in disciplinary proceedings had the tests been official.
But does this include all sports at the 80 Olympics or just T&F?
And if they were all from T&F, then which events? 26 (including 1 for each of the 4 relays) gold medalists (12 individual Russians, 10 individual East Germans) in Moscow T & F were either Russian or from the GDR, two countries who we know were operating under a state sponsored drug programme at the time. So I'm more surprised that if only 16 gold medalists returned positive steroid tests after further testing, that means some of those Russians and East Germans were 'clean'?
I have always thought it impossible to get sub 3:30 clean.
I believe herb eliotts (corrected for cinder track) ca 3:32 (in Rome 1960?) is the true record. I know im very old fashioned but dont blame me, blame the cheaters...
That there is no consensus about what is the clean record shows that no top performance can be trusted. Any of them could be doped. The logical position is then to assume they all are and conclude we will never know what is the clean record.
Deano the Ngeny story has been well-chronicled. AK dropped him because he defied them. He didn’t want to go to their camp and wanted to continue training with his group. A political move unrelated to drugs or anything else. Then he was in a severe car accident and could not reclaim his old form. You can go sinister on these things if you want of course, but these were well-documented at the time.
I said I would love to believe it but I’m skeptical, implying (I thought very clearly), that I didn’t think it was clean. But I will anxiously await the reveal of your source and the trial with God to turn my skepticism into fact.
There have been over 1,000,000 EPO tests administered worldwide in the last 30 years. Only four have returned positive A samples and negative B samples. Two in athletics ((Lagat and Marion Jones) and two in cycling. In 3 of those 4 cases the athlete was later confirmed doping amd banned.
Lagat is truly a 1 in a million billion athlete.
The only case in a million of a clean athlete with a positive A sample
One of only 3 out of the 10 billuon or so individuals on planet Earth over the last 30 years to run 3:26.
It's like winning the lottery a million times in a row. Of course the dude is clean, Probably even cleaner than Shelby.
July 20: The Olympic 1500 metres champion Noah Ngeny has been dropped from Kenya's team for the world championships after he chose to run in Britain this weekend against the orders of his national association.
There have been over 1,000,000 EPO tests administered worldwide in the last 30 years. Only four have returned positive A samples and negative B samples. Two in athletics ((Lagat and Marion Jones) and two in cycling. In 3 of those 4 cases the athlete was later confirmed doping amd banned.
Lagat is truly a 1 in a million billion athlete.
The only case in a million of a clean athlete with a positive A sample
One of only 3 out of the 10 billuon or so individuals on planet Earth over the last 30 years to run 3:26.
It's like winning the lottery a million times in a row. Of course the dude is clean, Probably even cleaner than Shelby.
Not to be cynical, but a lot of these times are suspicious. In fact, several of these guys have been outright busted for PEDs.
So, knowing what we know, of all the guys who have broken 3:30, who do you think has the clean world record? And why. You don't have to tell me who you think is dirty, just your vote for clean world record holder. And if you think all these guys are dirty, just say, "none."
1 3:26.0 Hicham EL GUERROUJ 2 3:26.3 Bernard LAGAT 3 3:26.7 Asbel KIPROP 4 3:27.4 Noureddine MORCELI 5 3:27.6 Silas KIPLAGAT 6 3:28.1 Noah NGENY 7 3:28.3 Timothy CHERUIYOT 8 3:28.3 Jakob INGEBRIGTSEN 9 3:28.7 Taoufik MAKHLOUFI 10 3:28.8 Mohamed KATIR 11 3:28.8 Abdelaati IGUIDER 12 3:28.8 Elijah Motonei MANANGOI 13 3:28.8 Mo FARAH 13 3:28.8 Ronald KWEMOI 15 3:28.9 Fermín CACHO 16 3:29.0 Mehdi BAALA 17 3:29.0 Daniel Kipchirchir KOMEN 18 3:29.0 Josh KERR 19 3:29.1 Rashid RAMZI 20 3:29.2 Vénuste NIYONGABO 21 3:29.2 Jake WIGHTMAN 22 3:29.3 William CHIRCHIR 23 3:29.5 Saïd AOUITA 23 3:29.5 Daniel KOMEN 25 3:29.5 Augustine Kiprono CHOGE 26 3:29.5 Caleb Mwangangi NDIKU 27 3:29.5 Ali SAIDI-SIEF 27 3:29.5 Stewart MCSWEYN 29 3:29.5 Amine LAALOU 30 3:29.6 Abel KIPSANG 31 3:29.6 Ayanleh SOULEIMAN 32 3:29.7 Nick WILLIS 33 3:29.7 Steve CRAM 34 3:29.8 Sydney MAREE 34 3:29.8 Sebastian COE
It's a great question. My gut feeling is that anything substantially under 3.28 - especially without the benefit of wavelight just feels not right. I mean the guys under 3.27? Stop it - history has now shown how laughable these times are and obviously 2 of them were caught.
So as I personally go down the list, I only take pause at Ngeny and Ingebrigtsen. I've met and been around Noah a bit, albeit 20 years ago but don't want that to cloud any judgement. As much as I want to believe with him, the 3.43 mile in particular - in this era, is hard to fathom. With Jakob there is more circumstantially to believe in. He's in the era of improved product which even though I don't think helps a lot in racing it certainly helps in preparation. He's also in the era of lights racing around a track at a perfect tempo which is an even bigger help and even though he set his PR in non-wavelight race, almost every other race he runs now has them which no doubt has helped with his pace judgement and execution in quick races.
Could I rule out that he's doing something - of course not, none of us can. But he of all the sub 3.29 runners would objectively seem to be the least likely to be/have bent the rules but that's just a gut feeling.
It's a great question. My gut feeling is that anything substantially under 3.28 - especially without the benefit of wavelight just feels not right. I mean the guys under 3.27? Stop it - history has now shown how laughable these times are and obviously 2 of them were caught.
So as I personally go down the list, I only take pause at Ngeny and Ingebrigtsen. I've met and been around Noah a bit, albeit 20 years ago but don't want that to cloud any judgement. As much as I want to believe with him, the 3.43 mile in particular - in this era, is hard to fathom. With Jakob there is more circumstantially to believe in. He's in the era of improved product which even though I don't think helps a lot in racing it certainly helps in preparation. He's also in the era of lights racing around a track at a perfect tempo which is an even bigger help and even though he set his PR in non-wavelight race, almost every other race he runs now has them which no doubt has helped with his pace judgement and execution in quick races.
Could I rule out that he's doing something - of course not, none of us can. But he of all the sub 3.29 runners would objectively seem to be the least likely to be/have bent the rules but that's just a gut feeling.
I don’t have to lobby more for Ngeny but just noting that in the 3:43.4 of course that was an absolutely perfectly paced and executed affair for him to sit behind and turn his brain off. You don’t need wavelength for that. Jakob and Tim (in numerous instances) I think have actually gotten screwed in terms of pacers (one frequent problem was Tim Sein so that’s on Tim somewhat) outside of the Tokyo Olympics ironically where Tim did a great job for Jakob. El Guerrouj got paced to 1200 at absolute perfection in his 2 World Records. Jakob is lucky to get someone through to 900. It feels like there are few if any good second pacers (would young Kenyans like Keter/Raynold Cheruiyot/Kimaiyo take this on?), so Sowinsky who should not be expected to go past 900 is the guy. We’ll see if this improves in future record attempts. At that level it makes a difference.
No I agree with that - pretty efficient race (moreseo mentally) for Ngeny to run. But it's still 3.43 and that's a time which let's be honest nobody is approaching now - even an incredible talent like Jakob. And the problem is still the era which was a free-for-all - especially with respect to an endurance boosting, hematocrit boosting drug we all know very well.
Pacing does matter for sure. Obviously -but you still have to run the time. This season will be really interesting - Jakob and the rest of this current elite crop who are now settled in with performances under 3.30 really hitting their primes with pacing lights there to help them switch off and just autopilot on the perfect pace and rhythm.
This post was edited 25 seconds after it was posted.
Help us build the best running shoe review site for a chance to win a LetsRun t-shirt.Help us build the best running shoe review site for a chance to win one of 10 LetsRun t-shirts.
