Wanting to believe as this is just devastating for Aussie aths...
But EPO is always injected right? Not ingested?? Accidents not really possible? : (
Realistically if you give out a million tests, some of them will give wrong results. The odds of any specific person have a false result is low. But a million tests? Yeah a couple will be wrong.
"I can 100 per cent confirm that Pete has NEVER even considered taking a performance enhancing drug, let alone inject himself with one. "We have always been open & transparent in regards to our training and will continue to do so. All we can do is trust in the process and be open & honest." No
How in the world can you 100% confirm? You can't. You can say, "I'd be my life, etc" but you don't know 100%.
100% agree. Same thing as Centro's defense for Shelby. I'm not saying going over the top for another makes the athlete guilty, but it just doesn't make much sense. Why not just say: "Peter and I have NEVER discussed or considered taking a PED. I 100% trust his integrity as an athlete, and I stand behind him 100%."
Someone smarter than me will have to tell me if this study applies. It had a 4-6% false positive rate, but upon further analysis the mistakes were rectified.
Such a surprise I was knocked out unconscious. Still trying to process it. Why would a Sudanese genetic superman need to dope and still not be able to get close to a mere mortal like Snell? Maybe Rinaldi can explain?
Over the years, my faith in these tests has continued to diminish. Like he says, let the process play out.
ETA: Never knew LR had an edit feature. Just to clarify that my lack of faith in testing is about athletes from wealthier countries having the scientific backing and know-how to evade getting caught. Kenyan dopers are still crude and unsophisticated.
Ok here's my question -- what is the actual percent that test positive with their A sample but not B sample? It's probably a very small percent so this feels like a whataboutism. We can't use this logic because it's not what happens in a majority of situations like this.
Bol has a very good lawyer/consultant/pr team that crafted his statement, which has created a 50/50 dialogue when talking about his case -- its exact intended purpose. If he has never taken EPO then why the positive test? It does the sport a disservice to release statements like this because every doper that gets caught will use the same PR firm to put out a carbon copy of this. The playbook is in plain sight for dopers. Nobody will ever admit to doping when they get caught. Any clear cut doping case becomes instantly clouded, as there are automatically two sides to every case. The incentive to dope is strong when you can play the victim, serve your time, and be welcomed back into the sport with open arms by fans/meets/sponsors.
I don’t think these canned PR statements have much influence on public opinion. As we saw with Shelby, some people will believe literally anything because they’ve already decided that an athlete is clean (regardless of the evidence).
I think we just have to accept that statements like these are part of the game. There’s a lot more riding on Bol’s B sample than just his own career. As nice as it would be to see him or anyone else in the same position be frank and admit to intentionally doping because that’s what it takes to compete at the highest level, it’ll never happen. It simply hurts too many people (coach, teammates, agent, sponsor, national federation, etc.).
when normal bans are announced are they with a and b samples having been tested?
Meaning, was this one announced a little before most positive samples are announced?
Well, no ban has been announced. He's provisionally suspended from formal training with his coach/teammates until the results of the B sample, then possibly the appeals process. He was informed a week ago. That's probably why they decided to release the news. They don't have to do that as we saw in the Shelby situation where she was not racing for months mysteriously as she worked behind-the-scenes to try to get her provisional ban overturned.
when normal bans are announced are they with a and b samples having been tested?
Meaning, was this one announced a little before most positive samples are announced?
It appears that his B sample is yet to be tested. It also seems odd to announce an A positive without verifying through confirmation of positivity in the B sample. I’m interested to hear any replies to your questions. Further, it would be interesting to know if a sample can be “spiked” and test positive for epo. Can something like that be sabotaged, or does a test differentiate something like that? What is the positive window time where someone will test positive after having microdosed epo? 4 hours? 6 hours? 12 hours?
But in this country - and I assume it's the same in Australia - you have a presumption of innocence.
Sorry, Rojo, but the presumption of innocence in the age of social media is long gone. Despite not having evidence, people act mob-like and try (often quite successfully) to subvert due process.
Yeah James loves his Kenyans. The way James got into athlete management was at the 1996 World Juniors in Sydney. James was a team liaison (possibly for Kenya, not 100% sure) and got talking to athletes and coaches about how the professional system worked. So he strikes up an arrangement with Japhet Kimutai (who won the 800m and held the world junior record for the 800 at one point) and after the championships starts this transition to the track and field world. Picks up Lagat and a bunch of other decent Kenyans plus some solid Germans (as they based themselves in Tubingen, Germany with Isabelle Baumann's group) and that's how he got rich.
Now, I do think it's easy to see the obvious link with the Lagat incident and story (because right now it appears almost identical) and tie James in with this but I'm not sure. I think we overestimate how much agents have to do with the athletes on a daily basis. Like Templeton isn't down at the track daily with any athletes - not even close. Coaches are more likely to be involved (a la Jama Aden, Salazar), but agents not so much. Some agents might only bump into their athletes only a few times a year at meets as they hop around different combos of meetings etc.
I do think what looks really similar are the responses (which by now are so cookie cutter and cringeworthy) and this definitely comes from James, but what else is he supposed to do/say (other than let the kid say what he did which NEVER happens, ever). Either way, is this unbelievable - absolutely not. Is it surprising? Yes. Have to be pretty careless to get dusted for EPO these days given what everyone knows about microdosing etc.
Pineda? Rosa?
Are they really oblivious as to what is going on, or are they complicit?
I think those situations are slightly different because with those groups (and I would throw Demadonna in there) the group coaches are all part of the "organization". Bol was/is coached by Rinaldi who doesn't really have any affiliation with James, he also would have athletes that were with Bideau, Stubbs, any other agent etc. There are though a few very insular groups where it's all kind of housed under the same umbrella.
Look think about it this way, it actually makes a lot of sense if some sh-t is going on with an athlete, that someone in the athletes circle (coach, agent, PT etc) either legit doesn't know what's going on or deliberately just "hears and sees no evil" and therefore can "speak" no evil, right? If everyone has explicit knowledge then there will almost certainly be a crack or some connecting evidence to complicity. So think about it, if Templeton "doesn't know" he can come out defend his guy and make statements and technically he's not lying.
Now that's not to say these guys aren't stupid - you don't have to be much of a genius to see what's going on when a guy goes from 3.42 to 3.35 or from mid tier international performer to World and Olympic finalist out of nowhere. But these are two different things.
100% agree. Same thing as Centro's defense for Shelby. I'm not saying going over the top for another makes the athlete guilty, but it just doesn't make much sense. Why not just say: "Peter and I have NEVER discussed or considered taking a PED. I 100% trust his integrity as an athlete, and I stand behind him 100%."
Yeah almost as bad as Jerry Schumacher claiming he had "never even heard of Nandrolone" (I was almost in tears when I first read that one).
Once again I don't know where this assumption comes from that coaches know absolutely everything that an athlete does in their life - as if they live with them. I could have had a fridge full of EPO and been jabbing into my backside every night before bed and my coach would have had absolutely no idea. And considering you can buy this sh-t on the internet and have it delivered to your place like an amazon order (re: Martin Fagan), that is not implausible at all.
But to your point and Rojo's, making unequivocal statements is impossible and stupid to do because it almost adds suspicion to the situation.
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
Are they really oblivious as to what is going on, or are they complicit?
I think those situations are slightly different because with those groups (and I would throw Demadonna in there) the group coaches are all part of the "organization". Bol was/is coached by Rinaldi who doesn't really have any affiliation with James, he also would have athletes that were with Bideau, Stubbs, any other agent etc. There are though a few very insular groups where it's all kind of housed under the same umbrella.
Look think about it this way, it actually makes a lot of sense if some sh-t is going on with an athlete, that someone in the athletes circle (coach, agent, PT etc) either legit doesn't know what's going on or deliberately just "hears and sees no evil" and therefore can "speak" no evil, right? If everyone has explicit knowledge then there will almost certainly be a crack or some connecting evidence to complicity. So think about it, if Templeton "doesn't know" he can come out defend his guy and make statements and technically he's not lying.
Now that's not to say these guys aren't stupid - you don't have to be much of a genius to see what's going on when a guy goes from 3.42 to 3.35 or from mid tier international performer to World and Olympic finalist out of nowhere. But these are two different things.
I meant to reply to Thoughtsleader here and not Salvitore. Yeah but if a coach said he and his athlete had never discussed taking a PED that too would be suspicious because I would damn well make sure I had discussed it with my athlete, either to say hey we need to use this to be competitive or do not even consider taking any PED (and be damn careful what you put in your body) if you want to be coached by me.
Curious to see the Brojos show up and call everyone who believes Bol is guilty a "hater"
Waiting to see Lauren Fleshman call this a "tragedy"
waiting for the lamenting of "innocent athletes" getting caught from the running media.
The dude's B sample hasn't even been tested yet. He very well may be a total lying fraud. But in this country - and I assume it's the same in Australia - you have a presumption of innocence.I
I think it was hashed and rehashed in the Shelbo case that there is no presumption of innocence: positive test is presumption of guilt, and you need to prove you're not.
I meant to reply to Thoughtsleader here and not Salvitore. Yeah but if a coach said he and his athlete had never discussed taking a PED that too would be suspicious because I would damn well make sure I had discussed it with my athlete, either to say hey we need to use this to be competitive or do not even consider taking any PED (and be damn careful what you put in your body) if you want to be coached by me.
Well maybe you’d reword to say “we never discussed implementing or using PEDs and both were committed to competing clean etc. I have a no-tolerance position when it comes to PEDs and would refuse to work with any athletes I had any suspicious about.” The point is don’t act like you babysit your athletes when you don’t. You see them in training/meets and you might occasionally see them socially. You don’t follow their every move, so acting so sure of anything comes across as unrealistic.
Something about track coaches is weird in this respect.
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
Ok here's my question -- what is the actual percent that test positive with their A sample but not B sample? It's probably a very small percent so this feels like a whataboutism. We can't use this logic because it's not what happens in a majority of situations like this.
Bol has a very good lawyer/consultant/pr team that crafted his statement, which has created a 50/50 dialogue when talking about his case -- its exact intended purpose. If he has never taken EPO then why the positive test? It does the sport a disservice to release statements like this because every doper that gets caught will use the same PR firm to put out a carbon copy of this. The playbook is in plain sight for dopers. Nobody will ever admit to doping when they get caught. Any clear cut doping case becomes instantly clouded, as there are automatically two sides to every case. The incentive to dope is strong when you can play the victim, serve your time, and be welcomed back into the sport with open arms by fans/meets/sponsors.
One problem with your theory: His career's gonna be done if after the B sample and further analysis it is confirmed by the authorities that it is synthetic EPO. 4-year-ban gets him to age 33, which is too old for an 800m runner.
Also, what EPO athletes have welcomed back with open arms? The incentive to cheat is there, but I think you're crazy if you don't think there's a massive disincentive.
I hear you but I dk if I agree. Let's say he is guilty. Maybe he had the talent to be a 1:47 or 1:48 guy clean. With drugs he runs 1:44, does well at the Olympics, gets invited to a ton of race + does well at those races. He's 28. He's probably been making decent enough money for several years now. Maybe he's the wrong example because, you're right, at age 33 he's probably done running the 800. But meets will let him in if he want to run an 800 or move up to the 1500. It's gonna happen for Shelby. Look at all the people who go down for whereabouts and we dk what they were on. Those are people who get welcomed back with open arms. The Christian Coleman's of the world. I hope there's a massive disincentive to cheat but you can beat testers these days. There's also a massive incentive to cheat, get your bag while you can, & if you get popped you get popped. Muddy the waters and put out a nice statement saying you never cheated. Maybe you get to continue your career.
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