Morceli was dominant in 91 because Elliott got injured (and in 90).
What Elliott did in early 1990 would have been sensational in the epo era or today in the super shoe era. Based on his 1:42 and his Commonwealth Games, and what he was doing in training, he and his coach fully expected to run 3:27 that summer. Alas he got injured. He was returning to form in early 91 but then had problems again and missed Tokyo. Morceli dodged Elliott at the Bislett Games in 91.
So Elliott started doping? How else is a late 20s athlete cutting 5s off their PR?
Come on. A two second improvement from 3:31 to 3:29 at age 22 (which wasn't an real improvement in performance level at all) is a clear indication of started EPO use. A real five second improvement from 3:32 to 3:27 at age 28 is normal (when you are working in a steel factory).
Morceli was dominant in 91 because Elliott got injured (and in 90).
What Elliott did in early 1990 would have been sensational in the epo era or today in the super shoe era. Based on his 1:42 and his Commonwealth Games, and what he was doing in training, he and his coach fully expected to run 3:27 that summer. Alas he got injured. He was returning to form in early 91 but then had problems again and missed Tokyo. Morceli dodged Elliott at the Bislett Games in 91.
Let me guess, if a 28 year old Elliott with a 3:32.69 PR had run 3:27 in 1991, you would never accuse him of doping.
You can say that Morceli dodged Elliott at Bislett ‘91, and I can’t definitively refute that. But here’s the calendar:
July 3 - Stockholm Galan
1. Morceli 3:31.01
July 6 - Oslo Bislett
1. Elliott 3:49.46
July 10 - Lausanne Athletissima
1. Morceli 3:49.12
So if he dodged Elliott, he did so by winning at two meets that are now Diamond League meets, one week apart, in times that are faster than Elliott’s lifetime bests at 1500 & mile respectively.
Later in ‘91, they faced off over 1500 at the Brussels Memorial Van Damme, and Morceli won 3:32.38 to 3:32.94–one of five times in Morceli’s age-21 season that he ran 1500m faster than Elliott’s lifetime best.
Some posters have understated how dominant Morceli was in 1991 as a 21 year old. Coevett’s claim that Peter Elliott would have been the Olympic favorite in ‘92 if he hadn’t been injured is especially ridiculous. In ‘91 Morceli went 19-0 in finals ranging from 800 to 3k, indoors and out (he won all his heats and semis for good measure). He clocked 3:31.00/3:31.00/3:31.01, which would be one thing if he was placing 5th, but doing it while sweeping the European circuit is something else entirely. The fact that those times are remarkably uniform is not proof that 3:31.00 was his limit at the time. Nobody could split 51.5 in a 3:32.5 race without sub-3:30 ability.
All that at age 21… It shouldn’t be surprising that he ran 3:28.86 once he got healthy at age 22, considering he was likely capable of that at age 21. If we applied the same circumstances to someone whose times are a little more conceivable (say a 21 year old running 3:35s with big kicks who then struggles some the next season before eventually breaking through to 3:33 flat to close the year) we would consider that “getting back on track.”
I don’t think the 3:28.86 PR is compelling evidence that he started doping after the ‘92 games, whatsoever. Not at all. Of course I can’t rule out the possibility, but I think it’s more likely that he was doping throughout all of ‘91 as well.
Morceli was dominant in 91 because Elliott got injured (and in 90).
What Elliott did in early 1990 would have been sensational in the epo era or today in the super shoe era. Based on his 1:42 and his Commonwealth Games, and what he was doing in training, he and his coach fully expected to run 3:27 that summer. Alas he got injured. He was returning to form in early 91 but then had problems again and missed Tokyo. Morceli dodged Elliott at the Bislett Games in 91.
Elliott was 'all out' running that 1:42.97 in 90. I believe that was close to his limit over 800m. Had he not been injured later that season then I see no reason he couldn't have run 3:30/3:31 in a well paced race, but there was no way on Earth he was ever close to being capable of 3:27. He never showed anything in any 1500 or mile race to suggest that ability. He didn't have the weapons Morceli had ( regardless of whether Morceli doped - and I think it was likely that he did) and certainly never produced anything approaching the 51.55 last lap in a 3:32 high ( which is what first made me think he was likely on EPO) championship final as Morceli did in 91. That is undeniably proof of at least 3:29 ability. The best Elliott produced was a 53.1 at the end of a 3:33.4.
Surprised you are unaware that Elliott was working full time doing hard manual labour in a Sheffield steel mill for most of the 80's. He broke Ovett's junior records when he was a teen. He might have been an ugly runner, but he was in the same talent bracket as the other golden Brits. To give you an idea how close he would have been to Morceli in 91, in 1990 he broke the 1500m indoor WR, and in 1991 Morceli shaved just 4/100ths off it.
Well I knew he was very good — he did win two global Silvers and a Commonwealth gold. Capable of running 3:27 or even 3:28 (pre-super shoes and Monaco) is a different level though, and you'd probably put that in the Coe talent bracket alone (given his 1:41.7 and 2:12.18 marks along with his obvious 1500/mile upside).
Elliott was very good and for a short time in 90 possibly the best all round middle distance runner in the world, but he was a notch below the triumvirate of Coe, Cram & Ovett imo. He was certainly not capable of 3:28 let alone 3:27.
Debating whether Morceli was the first African EPO doper is a bit like asking if Italians like spaghetti. The chances are yes in both cases and they won't be the exception.
Debating whether Morceli was the first African EPO doper is a bit like asking if Italians like spaghetti. The chances are yes in both cases and they won't be the exception.
I really want to make it clear that I posted this thread in good faith. I had no intention to harm Algerian sport image, but this thing I had it for years especially when I see the big gap created between the performances of Morceli and Aouita quickly in few years.
And god say how Aouita was a hard worker in his training, his colleagues stated that he come to the point of vomiting while training.
Even at the beginning of 90s (no one was talking about EPO at that time) I was astonished by these big performances made by these runners of decade 90.
If anyone is doubting about performance enhancing drugs, I have this example I saw this year.
Fatima-Zahra Birdaha (born in 2004)
Was suspended by the FRMA after ranking 2 in the World School Championship.
She was one of the two unique cases of Morocco this year.
I really want to make it clear that I posted this thread in good faith. I had no intention to harm Algerian sport image, but this thing I had it for years especially when I see the big gap created between the performances of Morceli and Aouita quickly in few years.
And god say how Aouita was a hard worker in his training, his colleagues stated that he come to the point of vomiting while training.
Even at the beginning of 90s (no one was talking about EPO at that time) I was astonished by these big performances made by these runners of decade 90.
If anyone is doubting about performance enhancing drugs, I have this example I saw this year.
Fatima-Zahra Birdaha (born in 2004)
Was suspended by the FRMA after ranking 2 in the World School Championship.
She was one of the two unique cases of Morocco this year.
It is not unfair to wonder about Morceli, El Guerrouj, Lagat and probably to a lesser extent Noah Ngeny. The first two are just so wildly better than any 1500m athletes from 2001-2012 besides Asbel Kiprop (busted), Rachid Ramzi (busted), and Makhloufi (highly suspicious). Now you have Tim Cheruiyot and Jakob who finally look close to their class as far as banging out 3:29-3:30 races, but that’s with superspikes and still not hitting 3:26-3:28 with regularity. At the 5,000 and 10,000 the times continually progressed to 2004 and 12:55 or 12:50 was not a “crazy mark” in any year since whereas running under 3:29 or 3:28 with any regularity would definitely stick out.
So Elliott started doping? How else is a late 20s athlete cutting 5s off their PR?
Come on. A two second improvement from 3:31 to 3:29 at age 22 (which wasn't an real improvement in performance level at all) is a clear indication of started EPO use. A real five second improvement from 3:32 to 3:27 at age 28 is normal (when you are working in a steel factory).
Turning from being a part-time athlete to a full-time athlete will make a bigger difference than turning 22.
How much mileage and hard workouts do you think Elliott was able to do working 40 hours a week in a steel mill? Why was the WR 15 seconds slower before the 50's when athletes had to work (usually in an office) full-time. Or do you accept that Bannister ran 17 seconds slower than El G purely due to doping? Would Bannister even have broken 4 minutes working in a steel mill rather than studying for medical exams?
I really want to make it clear that I posted this thread in good faith. I had no intention to harm Algerian sport image, but this thing I had it for years especially when I see the big gap created between the performances of Morceli and Aouita quickly in few years.
And god say how Aouita was a hard worker in his training, his colleagues stated that he come to the point of vomiting while training.
Even at the beginning of 90s (no one was talking about EPO at that time) I was astonished by these big performances made by these runners of decade 90.
If anyone is doubting about performance enhancing drugs, I have this example I saw this year.
Fatima-Zahra Birdaha (born in 2004)
Was suspended by the FRMA after ranking 2 in the World School Championship.
She was one of the two unique cases of Morocco this year.
It is not unfair to wonder about Morceli, El Guerrouj, Lagat and probably to a lesser extent Noah Ngeny. The first two are just so wildly better than any 1500m athletes from 2001-2012 besides Asbel Kiprop (busted), Rachid Ramzi (busted), and Makhloufi (highly suspicious). Now you have Tim Cheruiyot and Jakob who finally look close to their class as far as banging out 3:29-3:30 races, but that’s with superspikes and still not hitting 3:26-3:28 with regularity. At the 5,000 and 10,000 the times continually progressed to 2004 and 12:55 or 12:50 was not a “crazy mark” in any year since whereas running under 3:29 or 3:28 with any regularity would definitely stick out.
El G. prefer to be silent and it's one of the reproach I have about him. He also seems to be decided to not help anyone else. Where is your "savoir faire" El G.?
At every runner "busted" there is a side of truth and a side of rumors.
Some runners fall into the state of being not enough careful especially when they are in a phase of repeated declining results.
There are a lot of indices that lead to this. Before August 1992 he was a hard working talented middle distance runner but not at the same level as Aouita (who at that time was in a declining carrer 32/33+ year).
From September 1989 to August 1992 he was unable to past the cap of 3 min 31 sec in the 1500m.
Then in a struggling year (3 defeats) he jumped in the space of 2 weeks to 3min 28 sec 86.
EPO saved his carrer because after that he transformed in a killing machine for 4 years.
How much mileage and hard workouts do you think Elliott was able to do working 40 hours a week in a steel mill? Why was the WR 15 seconds slower before the 50's when athletes had to work (usually in an office) full-time. Or do you accept that Bannister ran 17 seconds slower than El G purely due to doping? Would Bannister even have broken 4 minutes working in a steel mill rather than studying for medical exams?
Well if the posts I have seen are right about 90mpw at a fast clip(pretty much everything sub 6) with 3 pretty hard track workouts.
And it turns out all that factory work was XC training by doing work that kept him healthy. As soon as he quit, he rapidly broke down...
Bannister running 70mpw on a modern track and working in a mill breaks 3:52 easily...
how much faster was Elliot after quitting? .2s over 1500m .26s slower over a mile. He was getting the work in...
Morceli closed the ‘91 World Champs with a 51.55 last lap within a 3:32.85 performance winning by 2 seconds. He was in 3:29 shape right then and there. I’m suspicious he was on something as his performances are ridiculous. As a championship performer, he had no readily apparent weaknesses (unlike Jakob/El G- speed). That being said the ‘92 performance was pretty inexplicably bad.
Not out of the question the Spanish bribed him to lose. The way the Kenyan moved out of the way for Cacho suggests money may have changed hands.
I think he decided to go on EPO after his defeat by Cacho in Barcelona (who was obviously on the stuff himself). He went to another level entirely almost immediately.
He likely stopped after winning the 96 Gold, and was soon after hospitalized with anemia, which is a sign his body had trouble now to produce red blood cells naturally.
Probably off by at least a year since he was the World Champion in 1991. You can't judge Morceli's career just by times because he was not generally a time trialer. He usually won with a devastating last lap kick that no one could match.
I think he decided to go on EPO after his defeat by Cacho in Barcelona (who was obviously on the stuff himself). He went to another level entirely almost immediately.
He likely stopped after winning the 96 Gold, and was soon after hospitalized with anemia, which is a sign his body had trouble now to produce red blood cells naturally.
I think he started in 1991,the year of his big breakthrough. Cacho beat him in 1992,but that was the only time.
All I know is my boy Brian Hyde went f'n toe to toe with both of these doping bastards - Cacho and Morcelli - in Sweden in '95, and very nearly beat them both, the world record holder and reigning Oly Champ.
Makes me wonder how the championship meets would've gone back then if bio passports were in use. Guys like Hyde got screwed.
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