Cook and Valby's training vs Tuohy's mileage

I don't know and unlike others I don't claim to know. And I am not sure it is less than optimal for her. Apparently it works very good for her. Again, it's not deep to realize that getting injured once a season is bad and it is the worst training that leads to this. I am just pointing out that as some people seem to overestimate the use of alternative training others seem to underestimate it. I assume we are talking about nuances here, not huge differences in effect. It will also depend on the type of runner, just like some runners get great results with 60-70 miles a week and others need 90.

FWIW I tend to the opposite conclusion wrt Valby's prospects than the fans. If one cannot bear a moderate mileage, say 50 miles/week at 20-21 it will be tough to make a carreer as a long distance runner.

No one asked this question,

What happens if a high mileage runner like Katelyn Tuohy incorporates more cross training in her usual training?

How does that affect her performance?

That is a good question. She could probably add some aerobic gains.

I also wonder, is 70 mpw really considered 'high' mileage for a collegiate distance runner? Its high compared to Cook/ Valby, but within the normal range for sure.

Cranny and the BTC pros are doing 90. Laura muir runs 60 as a mid d runner. The men are doing 115 in college.

If 70 is high, what is the normal range for a top D1 woman in the 5k?

As I understand it, when young people get "triggered" by "ideas" these days (and as far as I can tell, only young people are capable of using the word "trigger" in this way without irony or self-mockery), they are supposed to seek out "safe spaces" rather than get into discussions in which their views may be challenged. But I appreciate your willingness to put your thoughts out there, as long as you're willing to seriously consider other points of view.

I've stayed completely out of this Valby-Tuohy stuff, in part because I had no idea who Valby was before the NCAA cross-country championships and in part because I had little interest in the race accomplishments of U.S. teenagers with current technology. But I have listened to Valby in an interview or two, and she has made at least a couple of very important points -- first, that "alternative training" is largely underrated; second, that despite her low running mileage (and descriptions of her mileage as "25mpw" or "30-35 mpw" are hardly "inconsistent answers," but rather more accurate estimates of variations and margins of error that many runners and reporters simply ignore), she trains very hard.

Although it may be better not to be fragile, and it is probably better to be able to handle high mileage without breaking down, you appear to be underestimating the "untapped potential" of a runner who has not yet managed to run high mileage without getting injured. Although much has been written recently about running technology that produces faster times from similar efforts and conditioning, a far more important effect of running technology has been its ability to enable runners to handle higher higher mileage without breaking down from the higher musculoskeletal stress that increased mileage typically entails.

My first pair of running shoes cost $2.50 in 1974. They consisted of a piece of hard rubber that was somehow attached to a piece of canvas with eyelets for shoe laces. Shoe technology changed rapidly over the next ten years or so, but it still took a lot of changes before I was able to handle the 100+ mile weeks that led to big gains in running conditioning and performance. In earlier times, top racing performances at longer distances were significantly determined and limited by individual variations in musculoskeletal resilience or fragility in an almost Darwinian process of natural or self selection. In the interim, a fairly small percentage of us were able to improve through creative use of whatever forms of "alternative training" were available at the time. (For me, that alternative training included intense deep-water running with a water-ski jacket, stationary cycling, and eventually treadmill running at a very steep incline.)

I believe that even high-mileage runners can improve dramatically from "alternative training," especially something like steeply inclined treadmill running. But low-mileage, relatively "fragile" runners of similar current racing ability will often have significantly higher upside potential through creative use of ever-evolving technology that allows for both a high level of metabolic and central cardiovascular improvement along with a more gradual improvement in peripheral strength of bone and connective tissue that can in turn allow for a long-term increase in more specific volume and intensity of training resulting in better racing results.

A similar percentage of those who have have convenient access to ellipticals and arc trainers.

Yet Valby's indoor 3k time is faster, while having only a fraction of the racing experience.

Beamish is on Strava. He runs 5-6 days a week. Not 3-4.

That was a year ago. She would crush a track 10k right now.

If people on this thread are going to throw around mileage numbers, they should be backing them up. So much incorrect information in this thread. Which men in college are running 115? Who from the top-20 at NCAAs is running that much besides Maier?

We all know that more mileage is better. Coaches would have everyone go further if they didn't have to balance mileage and injuries.

I am curious what the splits were for that 3000. They don't seem to exist on pttiming. Tuohy was 2:58 / 5:58 (3:00) / 8:54 (2:56) (right after XC)

What makes you think Tuohy isn’t cross training? Look at her muscularity and overall balance of upper and lower body. You don’t get that by just running. She may not be sharing what she does (why should she) but I would be shocked if she is not doing weekly gym work and supplemental cross training.

You can see her body strength on the hills, where she really leans into it and pumps her arms way higher than most other ncaa elites like Valby. Yeah she’s got great quad strength, but she maxes the upper body in a way few other females are able to do.

Everyone knows she does some strength training. But Tuohy is not replacing a large volume of weekly mileage with cardio cross training eg arc trainer. I think that is what is being referred to here.

A mistake in your thinking.

If running more at this point was helpful then they'd be doing it. The simple truth is neither would be faster running more. The results from with an alternative can often exceed running.

Also, saying all African run high mileage is wrong. About as dumb as saying all Africans like ugali.

Valby ran a 3k well-rested, 2 months after XC, so she had more track speed training and time trialed her way to it. Tuohy ran it 2 weeks after a grueling cross country season which she ran with minor injury.

One thing to point out, Valby ran her 3k in an all-out effort that resulted to a foot injury right after.

The reason people run BU in December is because they are at peak fitness for the XC championship. A two week gap after the championship is perfect timing.

Valby ran a 4:35 DMR leg the day before the 3K so she was not well rested.

Solo "time trialing" is not easier than having a pro rabbit pull you all the way to the last lap on a fast track.

Valby broke her foot during that race and still ran faster than Tuohy.

I don't know a lot about Valby's training or situation. However, I have some background on Cook. The main reason that she cross trains is that her running form is "weird" and had led to injuries. I have seen her run in-person twice -- once in High School at Running Lane XC and this season at the Cowboy Jamboree. She runs on her toes and kind of kicks her legs out to the side. Her form looked better this year. I wonder if Ok State coaches have been working with her?

Here's a link to a MileSplit article that discusses her approach to cross training:

tx.milesplit.com

Natalie Cook Won State On 15-20 Miles And Cross Training

William Grundy

A new approach to training with low miles and cross training helped Natalie Cook run to a state championship.

Open link

Why run 75 mpw for only a 15:00 5k? That’s about the amount you need for a low 14s 5k