And delusion-ally, you might be referring to the guys that were fast at a young age, and thus would still be fast if they actually cared and put in the training in order to be fast when they are old. That may or may not be true, due to attrition of the body, and due to the fact that intrinsic motivation for the task is part of what makes one ‘fast’.
But if you still disagree, go ahead and list some examples of masters and grandmasters pegging out >85% Age Grade, that restrict themselves to only racing occasionally in the local 5k.
I'm in the SF area and I score about 85% typically and I never go to any of these championship events unless they're in my backyard. Someone posted results from some of the championship events for road races and there are names on there of guys finishing top 3 that I compete against locally. They only raced those events b/c they were a drivable distance.
The exception is club XC nationals - guys will travel for that.
But I echo that there are plenty of fast old guys who simply don't participate in these events. Either its b/c they've been running their whole lives at a high level so it is hard to be motivated as a 40+ athlete, they're burnt out, or they simply don't care.
E.g. did Lagat run at any of these races? Why would he fly across the country to race a field that doesn't actually represent the fastest people in the country?
As someone who has run extensively at both T&F and road National Masters Champs, and has been heavily involved in the Road Age-grading tables since 2015, let me make a few points.
1. The age grading tables are based on the best single-age performance, per sex, (world wide) at each distance. A smooth curve is then developed from the Open WR or WB to age 99. The curve is intended to mostly prevent age-grades >100%. A 100% AG is equal to the Open WR for a runner of that age. The 2020 age grade tables were developed by Alan Jones using my data and data from the Assoc. of Road Running Statisticians. So for example, Kipchoge's 2:01:39 =100% and a 100% AG for a 50 year old male = 2:31:07. In case you're, yes, super shoes had a huge impact on the 2020 tables.
2. Generally, good head-to-head competition, at least in the 800m - 10,000m distances, is rare at National Masters T&F champs. If you compare Masters ARs, you will often see Road times that are better than those on the track. In 2016, I set the M65 AR for 5000m at 17:44.03. (Ten days before the race, and 5 days before my 65th birthday, I ran a 17:17 5K on the road.) Three months later, I set the M65 5K Road record at 17:31 in Syracuse. at the same level of fitness. When I set the track mark, it was windy, and I had to continuously run around lapped older runners. In the road race, even though I ran the worst paced race of my life, I always had younger runners to chase. It's also important to remember, that there are prize purses at National Masters Road Champs (usually about $7000-$10000) with the best money allotted for the best age-grades. For National Masters T&F Champs, you get a medal and a patch.
3. If you compare the all-time top age-grades at the top four distances (5K, 10K, H Mar and Marathon) they are not that different. Due to the influence of super shoes, the 2020 age-grade standards got a lot tougher for the H Mar & Marathon and that accounts for much of the difference.
tlbernhard, thanks for your input. It's an honor - I'm truly impressed with your 17:31 5K at the age of 65!
Thanks for explaining how the road races have faster times (due to the pacing of the younger runners and prize money). That's really interesting and good to know.
And thanks for confirming how the all-time top age-grades are similar for the four distances, with the longer distances getting tougher with the influence of the super shoes.
When you were in your 50's, were you more of a mile to 5K guy or 10K to half guy? It's pretty awesome how you were able to maintain your 5K focus (with the more intensive 5K training) into your 60's. So, curious what your disposition was in terms of distances.
Any road races with faster Masters athletes than the USATF Championship races?
USATF Masters 5K 2022 Championship
45 to 49 - 1. Jacques Sallberg 15:58, 2. Jason Ritter 16:03, 3. John Jackson 16:06
50 to 54 - 1. Christian Cushing 16:45, 2. Mark Andrews 16:54, 3. Brent Fields 17:28
55 to 59 - 1. David Matherne 17:23, 2. Michael Collins 17:26, 3. John McMahon 17:36
60 to 64 - Joseph Mora 18:02, 2. Tim Degrado 18:05, 3. Rick Lee 18:05
USATF Masters 10K 2022 Championship 45 to 49 - 1. Jason Holroyd 33:37, 2. Mike Cole 33:56, 3. Aaron Price 34:17 50 to 54 - 1. Mark Carroll 33:38, 2. Richard Falcone 33:39, 3. Gregory Putnam 34:09 55 to 59 - 1. Nat Larson 34:22, 2. Brian Crowley 35:03, 3. Scott Grandfield 36:21 60 to 64 - 1. Tim Degrado 35:59, 2. Rick Lee 36:41, 3. Paul McGovern 36:54
Over 80, it thins out a lot. At 82, I was second in the USAFT 10K in a hilly 58 minutes in Dedham, and first in the USATF 12K race at Sandy Hook, N.J. in 1:14:54 (flat but near 90 degrees). But there were only around 10 competitors in each race in my age group.
As someone who has run extensively at both T&F and road National Masters Champs, and has been heavily involved in the Road Age-grading tables since 2015, let me make a few points.
1. The age grading tables are based on the best single-age performance, per sex, (world wide) at each distance. A smooth curve is then developed from the Open WR or WB to age 99. The curve is intended to mostly prevent age-grades >100%. A 100% AG is equal to the Open WR for a runner of that age. The 2020 age grade tables were developed by Alan Jones using my data and data from the Assoc. of Road Running Statisticians. So for example, Kipchoge's 2:01:39 =100% and a 100% AG for a 50 year old male = 2:31:07. In case you're, yes, super shoes had a huge impact on the 2020 tables.
Thanks, this is very interesting. Are the age-grading tables also smoothed so they're consistent from shorter distances to longer distances at the same age? Say Nat Larson (just picking him because he seems to be well ahead of his competitors) sets age-58 road records at 5K, 10 miles, and half but doesn't run a 10K at that age, leaving the 10K record for that age slower per mile than the 10-mile record, or at least somewhat softer than what it would've been if he had run one. Would the curve take that into account and generate a 100% 10K time that is somewhat faster than the existing record? Or does the smoothing only ensure consistency from younger to older runners at the same distance?
As someone who has run extensively at both T&F and road National Masters Champs, and has been heavily involved in the Road Age-grading tables since 2015, let me make a few points.
1. The age grading tables are based on the best single-age performance, per sex, (world wide) at each distance. A smooth curve is then developed from the Open WR or WB to age 99. The curve is intended to mostly prevent age-grades >100%. A 100% AG is equal to the Open WR for a runner of that age. The 2020 age grade tables were developed by Alan Jones using my data and data from the Assoc. of Road Running Statisticians. So for example, Kipchoge's 2:01:39 =100% and a 100% AG for a 50 year old male = 2:31:07. In case you're, yes, super shoes had a huge impact on the 2020 tables.
Thanks, this is very interesting. Are the age-grading tables also smoothed so they're consistent from shorter distances to longer distances at the same age? Say Nat Larson (just picking him because he seems to be well ahead of his competitors) sets age-58 road records at 5K, 10 miles, and half but doesn't run a 10K at that age, leaving the 10K record for that age slower per mile than the 10-mile record, or at least somewhat softer than what it would've been if he had run one. Would the curve take that into account and generate a 100% 10K time that is somewhat faster than the existing record? Or does the smoothing only ensure consistency from younger to older runners at the same distance?
Interested to hear the reply, but I think what you are describing is linear, which implies a consistent slope. My read is that smoothed means the curve can change slope and uses known race results rather than using a high-performing runner to fill in the gaps based on theoretical performance.
Interested to hear the reply, but I think what you are describing is linear, which implies a consistent slope. My read is that smoothed means the curve can change slope and uses known race results rather than using a high-performing runner to fill in the gaps based on theoretical performance.
Hmm...I didn't mean to imply a consistent slope, more like smoothing that would prevent inconsistent results like a 10k time not being much faster per mile than the 10-mile time just because the hypothetical Nat didn't run one at that age. I expect the curve changes slope at least along the age axis, as the age-90 WR for a given distance should be a greater multiple of the age-85 WR than the age-45 WR is of the age-40 WR.
i'll reply if only to echo what others have said: clubs x-c is probably as close as you'll come to a legit-everyone-shows national championship, but of course it's only really deciding (or attempting to decide) the best masters x-c runner. the road national titles, and all the various distances, are rarely ever fully contested by what you may rank as the top five (or more) in the country going head-to-head, though you easily get any combination of 3-5 of the top ten showing up, making them very competitive still, and absolutely worthwhile events (many thanks to guys like tom bernhard and others for making these events happen).
as mentioned, carlsbad in many years had the best 5k guys showing up, but even then it was probably still 3-5 of the top ten. take this as a brag or attempt at modesty, but in the 5 years i won carlsbad (6 if you count the year i got 2nd to an eventual banned drug cheat), i'd say maybe 3-4 of the years i was probably the top 5k master in the country, and the other times i was just the top guy in the race that day; however, i only have run one masters 5k on the track, and during my 40s only ran two of the 5k road nationals in syracuse (losing one to sean wade, who easily was the top 5k master in the country, and winning one). does that devalue national titles in years i didn't show up (and i have a multitude of reasons for why it wasn't worth my time, money, nor marriage)? it depends on whom you ask, but i've always figured you can only race who shows up, and you can only win national titles at national championships.
i would still generally count carlsbad as the most competitive 5k for masters (and a helluva lotta fun), but these days it probably more depends on where some of the fresh 40 dudes, like the indiana boys, show up. maybe they'll be at carlsbad this year, but prize money has been cut in half so it may not be worth it for them.
well put cush. Was that you and your teammates yelling at me as I did a couple laps outside the beer garden during the long awards ceremony!? (I felt too crummy to do a cool down in the first hour after the race, but jogged up to my car to pick up my phone and kept going for a few minutes--heard insults flying and pretty sure there was a West Coast twang to it).
Here's my story, not that anyone's asking. Won 7 AG road titles and 2nd in XC twice over a 2-year period in 2018-19 and still got called a hobby jogger in a LR thread similar to this.
The theme here is generally the same. What are the best races for masters and what's it take to run the best? In 2 minutes someone chimes in, oh by the way they're all on drugs, and if they're not they're just a bunch of aged hobby joggers who should be doing better things...
I can attest that club cross is the best/deepest masters field. In my only club XC race, I finished in the 30s. While I didn't have my best performance, I did expect to flirt with the top ten, and I wasn't close.
i'll reply if only to echo what others have said: clubs x-c is probably as close as you'll come to a legit-everyone-shows national championship, but of course it's only really deciding (or attempting to decide) the best masters x-c runner. the road national titles, and all the various distances, are rarely ever fully contested by what you may rank as the top five (or more) in the country going head-to-head, though you easily get any combination of 3-5 of the top ten showing up, making them very competitive still, and absolutely worthwhile events (many thanks to guys like tom bernhard and others for making these events happen).
as mentioned, carlsbad in many years had the best 5k guys showing up, but even then it was probably still 3-5 of the top ten. take this as a brag or attempt at modesty, but in the 5 years i won carlsbad (6 if you count the year i got 2nd to an eventual banned drug cheat), i'd say maybe 3-4 of the years i was probably the top 5k master in the country, and the other times i was just the top guy in the race that day; however, i only have run one masters 5k on the track, and during my 40s only ran two of the 5k road nationals in syracuse (losing one to sean wade, who easily was the top 5k master in the country, and winning one). does that devalue national titles in years i didn't show up (and i have a multitude of reasons for why it wasn't worth my time, money, nor marriage)? it depends on whom you ask, but i've always figured you can only race who shows up, and you can only win national titles at national championships.
i would still generally count carlsbad as the most competitive 5k for masters (and a helluva lotta fun), but these days it probably more depends on where some of the fresh 40 dudes, like the indiana boys, show up. maybe they'll be at carlsbad this year, but prize money has been cut in half so it may not be worth it for them.
that's my story and i'm sticking to it,
cush
Thanks for giving a clear perspective of the competitiveness of the USATF Road Champ races. Saying you easily get any combo of 3-5 of the top ten at these races is well said.
That's good to hear about Carlsbad! Would you know of any other competitive races at the 10K, 10M, or Half that are near the level of the USATF's?
Thanks for giving a clear perspective of the competitiveness of the USATF Road Champ races. Saying you easily get any combo of 3-5 of the top ten at these races is well said.
That's good to hear about Carlsbad! Would you know of any other competitive races at the 10K, 10M, or Half that are near the level of the USATF's?
If you have say 3 of the top 10, is that really much different than the open road championships? Olympic and WC track championships get like 8/10. Road races? Not so much...
Thanks for giving a clear perspective of the competitiveness of the USATF Road Champ races. Saying you easily get any combo of 3-5 of the top ten at these races is well said.
That's good to hear about Carlsbad! Would you know of any other competitive races at the 10K, 10M, or Half that are near the level of the USATF's?
If you have say 3 of the top 10, is that really much different than the open road championships? Olympic and WC track championships get like 8/10. Road races? Not so much...
I don't know if 3 of 10 is different - what races are you referring to when you mention the 'open road championships'?
I agree, the USATF Champ races doesn't pretty much get the whole top 10 like the Olympics or WC. It does seem like getting 3 of 10 is making the USATF Champ races the most competitive races for Masters. Do you know of any races at the 10K, 10M, or Half distances that are more or equally competitive for Masters athletes?
Thanks for giving a clear perspective of the competitiveness of the USATF Road Champ races. Saying you easily get any combo of 3-5 of the top ten at these races is well said.
That's good to hear about Carlsbad! Would you know of any other competitive races at the 10K, 10M, or Half that are near the level of the USATF's?
If you have say 3 of the top 10, is that really much different than the open road championships? Olympic and WC track championships get like 8/10. Road races? Not so much...
i would agree with that--the open national champ road races only attract less than 1/2 of the top ten, and in your weird off-distances, maybe even less than that. worth noting: in x-c, clubs will not attract top-tier pros, but winter x-c nationals will (especially in years where it qualifies you for worlds); with masters, it's reversed--the winter nats is less competitive...
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