To also focus slightly more on the shoes in the case of Kipchoge ..
I remember when they became more mainstream the one huge argument against them was not the fact that they provide a huge advantage but that they provide a huge advantage for certain athletes relative to others depending on their stride etc
I think there was a study done at the time where results showed anything from a 0-8% benefit depending on the athlete.
Maybe the simple answer is that Kipchoge is the only runner of the top contenders who fall into that 8% benefit bracket .. The shoes were first used 10 years ago as a prototype in the olympic marathon by the nike athletes I think
The above is not my base case but at least its a different argument which could be a small additional reason for his success
Kipchoge's 5000m progression. Runs 13:13 as a 17 year old, 12:52 at 18, and his pb 12:46 at 19. This is very similar to Nijel Amos, except at least Amos had the excuse of being pulled around by Rudisha in that 2012 final. Progression is halted as soon as EPO testing is introduced. Moves to the roads the same year as the first ABP sanction was made.
Wow. Honestly this makes Kipchoge even more credible to me.
Basically he did the same on the track as he did on the roads - insane consistency.
He basically ran 10 years sub 13 in a row. Only one year over 13' and that was 2008 and there he got 2nd behind Bekele.
Of course I don't know, but I feel like Kipchoge earns the fruits from neverseen consistency. And that might be the single factor, that determines threshold/marathon pace the most. I guess we all conclude that consistency is the factor for endurance training.
If I had to bet, I'd bet that no one in history of mankind was able to train so much quality miles without significant interruption as he did. Ever. For me this makes perfect sense. Might be that his biggest talent is "just" durability.
It looks crazy, but it doesn't look too fishy for me.
Kipchoge's 5000m progression. Runs 13:13 as a 17 year old, 12:52 at 18, and his pb 12:46 at 19. This is very similar to Nijel Amos, except at least Amos had the excuse of being pulled around by Rudisha in that 2012 final. Progression is halted as soon as EPO testing is introduced. Moves to the roads the same year as the first ABP sanction was made.
Wow. Honestly this makes Kipchoge even more credible to me.
Basically he did the same on the track as he did on the roads - insane consistency.
He basically ran 10 years sub 13 in a row. Only one year over 13' and that was 2008 and there he got 2nd behind Bekele.
Of course I don't know, but I feel like Kipchoge earns the fruits from neverseen consistency. And that might be the single factor, that determines threshold/marathon pace the most. I guess we all conclude that consistency is the factor for endurance training.
If I had to bet, I'd bet that no one in history of mankind was able to train so much quality miles without significant interruption as he did. Ever. For me this makes perfect sense. Might be that his biggest talent is "just" durability.
It looks crazy, but it doesn't look too fishy for me.
Pikachu
Assumption:
That Kipchoge and peers (and recent previous marathon record holders) are not doping, because if there is a chance that they are, then there is no humanly way he could be crushing them like this.
Wow. Honestly this makes Kipchoge even more credible to me.
Basically he did the same on the track as he did on the roads - insane consistency.
He basically ran 10 years sub 13 in a row. Only one year over 13' and that was 2008 and there he got 2nd behind Bekele.
Of course I don't know, but I feel like Kipchoge earns the fruits from neverseen consistency. And that might be the single factor, that determines threshold/marathon pace the most. I guess we all conclude that consistency is the factor for endurance training.
If I had to bet, I'd bet that no one in history of mankind was able to train so much quality miles without significant interruption as he did. Ever. For me this makes perfect sense. Might be that his biggest talent is "just" durability.
It looks crazy, but it doesn't look too fishy for me.
Pikachu
Assumption:
That Kipchoge and peers (and recent previous marathon record holders) are not doping, because if there is a chance that they are, then there is no humanly way he could be crushing them like this.
To sum up my point:
I wouldn't be shocked if EK tested positive tomorrow, but I wouldn't be shocked if he ended his career without positive test because he is as clean as you can be.
I believe that - doping or not - his incredible consistency and psychology is key to the spectacular performances. And even the most outragous dopers never got to this consistency.
So it's fair to constat that the performances of EK definitely go way beyond what doping can do. I just hate the prejudices that only have one point: he's fast.
With this logic everyone sub 2:10 would have to be a doper when you'd have asked runners a couple decades ago.
To also focus slightly more on the shoes in the case of Kipchoge ..
I remember when they became more mainstream the one huge argument against them was not the fact that they provide a huge advantage but that they provide a huge advantage for certain athletes relative to others depending on their stride etc
I think there was a study done at the time where results showed anything from a 0-8% benefit depending on the athlete.
Maybe the simple answer is that Kipchoge is the only runner of the top contenders who fall into that 8% benefit bracket .. The shoes were first used 10 years ago as a prototype in the olympic marathon by the nike athletes I think
The above is not my base case but at least its a different argument which could be a small additional reason for his success
The 4% was first used in the US Olympic trials in 2016, then the men used them at the Olympics that year. There were probably prototypes before that, but the carbon plate/pebax combo has only been around for 6 years, and only really widely available for 4 years
That Kipchoge and peers (and recent previous marathon record holders) are not doping, because if there is a chance that they are, then there is no humanly way he could be crushing them like this.
To sum up my point:
I wouldn't be shocked if EK tested positive tomorrow, but I wouldn't be shocked if he ended his career without positive test because he is as clean as you can be.
I believe that - doping or not - his incredible consistency and psychology is key to the spectacular performances. And even the most outragous dopers never got to this consistency.
So it's fair to constat that the performances of EK definitely go way beyond what doping can do. I just hate the prejudices that only have one point: he's fast.
With this logic everyone sub 2:10 would have to be a doper when you'd have asked runners a couple decades ago.
For simplicity, let's divide Kipchoge and his closest competition in to three groups:
1. Dopers that never triggered doping violations or had violations covered up. 2. Dopers that triggered doping violations and were sanctioned. 3. Competitors who never dope.
Group 3 can not credibly exist because we know Groups 1 and 2 exist. Therefore Kipchoge is in Group 1.
Eliud could no longer break 27 minutes a decade ago. What the hell happened to completely transform him into the best long distance runner who ever lived?
He went to the roads and competed twice a year.
This is the answer right here. Been very selective on his races and the rest of the time just focusing on quality training is a perfect recipe to not only improve but also extend your longevity in the sport. Especially for longer distances, constantly racing through all seasons is typically the fast track to injuries, becoming burnt out and not been able to completely peak for the races that count.
This is the answer right here. Been very selective on his races and the rest of the time just focusing on quality training is a perfect recipe to not only improve but also extend your longevity in the sport. Especially for longer distances, constantly racing through all seasons is typically the fast track to injuries, becoming burnt out and not been able to completely peak for the races that count.
Of course you are not getting what Coevett is saying. Unless you are agreeing with him that one of the reasons Eliud barely races relates to his PED usage.
This is the answer right here. Been very selective on his races and the rest of the time just focusing on quality training is a perfect recipe to not only improve but also extend your longevity in the sport. Especially for longer distances, constantly racing through all seasons is typically the fast track to injuries, becoming burnt out and not been able to completely peak for the races that count.
Of course you are not getting what Coevett is saying. Unless you are agreeing with him that one of the reasons Eliud barely races relates to his PED usage.
What PED usage is that? He has never tested positive and has set multiple official world records certified by World Athletics. If that's not good enough for you what would be?
Of course you are not getting what Coevett is saying. Unless you are agreeing with him that one of the reasons Eliud barely races relates to his PED usage.
What PED usage is that? He has never tested positive and has set multiple official world records certified by World Athletics. If that's not good enough for you what would be?
I am telling you what Coevett is saying. Why are you so sensitive that you cannot comprehend Coevett’s post?
"Only the dumb and the careless get caught" - Richard Pound, WADA. Kipchoge's as clean as Bolt. If you want to believe that.
I searched the veracity of this quote and it was in a 2005 presentation on doping and was attributed to a guy not named Dick Pound. So like many of your arguments it’s thin at best. With how sophisticated anti-doping is nowadays in fact I’d suggest everyone dumb and careless is caught eventually. You guys even yourselves tacitly admit it by assuming all whereabouts bans are for dopers who know they would be caught red-handed. If it was so easy to beat the tests, there’d be no reason to ever miss a test.
Since you choose to disregard a comment attributed to Richard Pound, try this from Charles Yesalis, a professor of kinesiology at Pennsylvania State University and leading authority on sports enhancement drugs:
“Drug use has been epidemic in Olympic sports since the 1960s. It will be epidemic in Sydney. And only stupid and careless people get caught no matter how often they’re tested,” says Yesalis.
You may know a bit about track but you know little about doping - because you don't want to. It may surprise you to know that Pound and WADA have relied upon the advice of experts like Yesalis, and will have used his comments like those above as authoritative observations.
It is quite obvious that tests catch few when only 1-2% of tests return a positive and yet the prevalence in some sports exceeds an estimated 80%. Confidential athlete surveys by the IAAF puts the numbers doping in athletics at far higher than those caught. David Howman has conceded that antidoping is less sophisticated than doping, and so they cannot catch most dopers. All they can do is hope to deter some or limit its incidence.
It is a fairly forlorn hope. Since Marion Jones was busted for doping nearly twenty years ago we have known that athletes could use drugs which were masked or for which there was not a test. Those athletes who have failed whereabouts procedures were likely unsure that what they were taking would escape detection, as WADA does not tell them if it has effective tests for each and every drug.
You scoff at doping comments here because you have invested too much in your dream, that the best are not part of the doping circus. They are the centre ring. So we see a 2.01 marathon by a 38 year-old runner who gets better with age. Barnum and Bailey couldn't do better to entertain.
The article was linked because this is a thread asking how Kipchoge can be obliterating his own world records at age 37 and 11 months when he peaked athletically 10 years ago (actually 18 years ago when he was still a teenager). There have been at least several different studies that have shown that EPO has anti-aging effects (in addition to its running performance benefits). Clear?
So cite those studies, especially the ones that demonstrate that the anti-aging effects of EPO are in any way related to physical performance. Clear?
Besides, you were blatantly wrong in claiming that EPO testing was first introduced in 2004-2005. It was introduced at the Sydney Olympics in 2000.
And what ABOUT Bob Beamon? By your logic, he couldn't possibly have jumped nearly 2 feet further than the previous WR unless he was doped. So was he? How about David Moorcroft?
Since you can't be sure any of those historical performances were clean you can't offer them as evidence that Kipchoge's record is clean.
That Kipchoge and peers (and recent previous marathon record holders) are not doping, because if there is a chance that they are, then there is no humanly way he could be crushing them like this.
To sum up my point:
I wouldn't be shocked if EK tested positive tomorrow, but I wouldn't be shocked if he ended his career without positive test because he is as clean as you can be.
I believe that - doping or not - his incredible consistency and psychology is key to the spectacular performances. And even the most outragous dopers never got to this consistency.
So it's fair to constat that the performances of EK definitely go way beyond what doping can do. I just hate the prejudices that only have one point: he's fast.
With this logic everyone sub 2:10 would have to be a doper when you'd have asked runners a couple decades ago.
7 yellow jerseys in the TdF from one of sport's "most outrageous dopers" says you are wrong. Doping enables consistency - especially if they aren't caught, as most aren't.
This is the answer right here. Been very selective on his races and the rest of the time just focusing on quality training is a perfect recipe to not only improve but also extend your longevity in the sport. Especially for longer distances, constantly racing through all seasons is typically the fast track to injuries, becoming burnt out and not been able to completely peak for the races that count.
And no one else amongst thousands of runners does that?
So cite those studies, especially the ones that demonstrate that the anti-aging effects of EPO are in any way related to physical performance. Clear?
Besides, you were blatantly wrong in claiming that EPO testing was first introduced in 2004-2005. It was introduced at the Sydney Olympics in 2000.
And what ABOUT Bob Beamon? By your logic, he couldn't possibly have jumped nearly 2 feet further than the previous WR unless he was doped. So was he? How about David Moorcroft?
Since you can't be sure any of those historical performances were clean you can't offer them as evidence that Kipchoge's record is clean.
I didn't. I offered them as evidence that the assumption that all great performances are the result of doping is absurd.
From what I've read, the marathon is most definitely about aerobic capacity and running economy. The 5k in particular has a strong VO2 max component and that is what drops away quite precipitously when you reach your thirties. Aerobic capacity can continue to improve into your late-30s and maybe beyond. It's why you see so many amateur guys in their 50s/60s who can run 3:10 for the marathon but only 21/22 minutes for 5k.
What's the difference between VO2 max and "aerobic capacity"?
"He set his sights on the Twin Cities Marathon that September, when he’d be 41. His goal was to run under 2:20 and notch the A standard for the 2004 U.S. Olympic Marathon Trials. Hellebuyck ran pain-free throughout the race, but as he approached the final mile, he saw that he still might not meet his goal. The experiment in which he’d invested and risked so much still seemed like a failure. And then, suddenly, he says, all of the years of training and all the injections of EPO kicked in. Hellebuyck felt like he was soaring. “I don’t know where it came from. I got that extra boost, and I finished unbelievably fast. How can you possibly kick that fast at the end of a marathon? I say, You know what? That’s the first time I was believing in EPO. It was not natural. I mean seriously, the way I kicked down that last 400 yards and ran [to 2:19:59] was just unnatural.” The Confessions of Eddy Hellebuyck (runnersworld.com)