Breaking the long run rule

Because most of us have to deal with the realities of life where school/work/family take priority over running. Weekends often doesnt have school or work which makes them ideal to spend more time running than usual. Pro runners and "science" (i.e the ideal plan with to constraints) isn't that interesting in that aspect. You might as well recommend double threshold with a 2 hour nap between session. Very ideal, but not realistic. Just the same as Al Sal 1977 plan. Come on.

Apologies if I came off the wrong way. If a 2 hr LR works for OP, good for him.

That is true, but his threshold workouts would consist of about 10K of high-end work. He does two of those in one day, and there are also warmup, cooldown and rest intervals, giving daily volume likely well upwards of 30K. That's hardly the case for OP.

This.

For a runner like the op, the question is whether everything else with his training staying the same, is it better for him to run 2 hours on Sunday or 90 minutes.

Telling him that he should instead be running twice a day everyday isn’t helpful as that evidently isn’t something the op has the desire to do and isn’t the question being asked.

Yes and no. There was a time everyone was either in school or had a job and made hay all week long. Yes, weekends have more time for hay making but there are ways other than long runs to do it. Ian Thompson was a school teacher when he ran his 2:09. I read a profile of his training. Through the week he did a five mile run and another five on some days and a ten on other ones, sometimes with faster stuff. What struck me was he did thirty miles on Sundays. I tried doing that myself for a while mostly because Thompson did it. I gave up after several weeks. A few months ago I found that he did his "30" in three separate ten milers.

A fortyish mile a week runner certainly can make hay on the weekends with a long run, say two hours, on one of the days. But he also could make hay with two one hour runs or three forty minute ones. Or he could do four one hour runs over both days. Or he could do a two hour run. The OP got a good result after doing that so I'd be hesitant to talk him out of keeping on with it for now.

When I was running a lot 100+ miles per week, I was running a business that required me to work physically 10 hours or more a day, and I had a young family. when the kids went to bed I went for my run. This usually meant starting out at 9pm.

Not willing to do what is needed in training is not a limitation and to double down on what I said “science does not care.”

36:69 is that a clever way of making 37:09 look better

Sure, pat yourselves on the back for being a quixotic purist militia defending the faith with your strawmen and effigies. You can also allow room for possibility and practical effectiveness for people who fall well short of obsessives like yourself, HRE, and GM.

Its your ilk that are obsessively hang on to a long run that will never help you improve. 38% of your weekly mileage packed into one day is idiotic. A rational person would see it clearly. Good luck.

Denial isn't just a river in Egypt

SAVAGE. Hahahaha. Nothing makes me appreciate LetsRun more than the true faith willing to eviscerate each other over minor doctrinal issues. The Huguenots and Papists indeed

Or he could just add in 30 mins of running to the other days. Is an extra mile 4 days a week easier or harder than an extra half hour? There is nothing magical about a long run. Running 5 hours instead of 4.5 hours though is a decent volume increase.

@malmo, I’ll try one more time. The guy runs 40 mpw - so a 15 miler on Sunday sets him up for a solid week. Pair that with a day off and he’s got 25 miles left over 5 days. Maybe one tempo run and some intervals? I get that many people tend to lapse into steady-state pace, ie faster than easy, slower than tempo if they overemphasize a long run, but if he just gets one 20 min tempo run in and some form of intervals, he’ll be able to get in the low 17s or better from where he is. That’s a really good accomplishment for a hobby-jogging dad.

@otter - no offense intended, but it really seems that you’re very interested in talking about your accomplishments rather than what’s good for your charges. Maybe your charges are impressed with your family management, 10 hr per day job, and 100 mile weeks, but the vast majority of people just want to run a decent race and get the blood pumping. Why not think about what’s good for them rather than forcing them into your little template?

I regularly did two-hour long runs of 14-15 miles on 40-45 mpw and know that my racing (5K to half marathon) benefited from it. The key for me was that four days of the week were recovery runs of 30 minutes at a very gentle pace. My W and F runs were 8-10 miles with some sort of value added--often progression runs or out-and-back to the hills.

So I've never trusted the rule. Just keep your easy runs very easy on your off days.

Exactly, but the guy is reporting what he perceives to be a breakthrough. We know nothing of his other exercise regimen, but I’ll assume it wasn’t worth reporting. Instead of increasing his mileage, I’d rather see him do some yoga and weight training for flexibility and strength. TRX bands and a pull-up bar would do just fine.

I was generally fine up to 60 miles per week, but more than that and I needed to devote significant time to strength and mobility. Maybe he could work out on an erg and bike once a week too. You can really wipe yourself out on a rower pretty quickly and it’s good for your whole body.

Point is, there are many different paths to running well for your ability level. Each person is different and will benefit from a unique mixture of stimuli that they have to uncover for themselves. @malmo is one of the first people I’d ask if I was training to become world-class, but I don’t think those principles scale appropriately for age-group heroism.

Here's a thread:

If you scroll down in the thread I've just shared, you'll find a link where you can download the collected training wisdom of John Kellogg--a very long 250+ page PDF. Here's some of what he has to say about long runs. Sorry for the formatting; that's what happens when you copy and paste from a PDF:

Workout Purposes - Long Runs (over 95 min.)
As with all regular easy runs, long runs should be started at a slow pace. A slow pace requires
fat metabolism, while faster speeds use glycogen (carbohydrate) as the principal fuel source.
Balancing fat and glycogen utilization is essential for marathon races, obviously, but it also is
important for training purposes. The pace in the middle of a long run must be kept decent but
even and very comfortable (about 65%-68% of the range from resting HR to max HR). It is vital
to never struggle until the distance itself becomes tough. The pace should not be a problem, even
for most of a marathon race!
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During a long excursion, it is prudent to practice taking 4-6 ounces of water from squirt bottles
(or even from cups) about every 3 miles. About 150-200 meters before the bottles are reached,
the pace should be picked up slightly so as to allow for a little harder breathing without
hyperventilation. The effort should be kept aerobic throughout, but the deeper breathing affords
the chance to practice a valuable technique. Adding an extra final exhalation during a slightly
increased pace for 30 or so seconds gets rid of some of the air in the lungs which has participated
for the longest time in the gas exchange. This air gradually acquires a higher percentage of
carbon dioxide during prolonged moderate aerobic effort, which may lead to a gradual increase
in breathing frequency (a phenomenon called "ventilatory drift"). Exhaling a little harder and
longer through pursed lips for 30-45 secs. every few miles provides better oxygenation on
subsequent breaths by clearing the "dead" air and increasing the interthoracic pressure. Using a
water station as the pace pickup point is applicable to marathons, particularly elite races or
crowded races which feature traffic jams at the water tables. Top level runners are also always
making minor moves (and occasionally major ones) in marathons, so obtaining the ability to vary
the speed comfortably can pay off handsomely.
It is paramount to remain relaxed on all long runs, with the jaw loose, and breathing through
the diaphragm. A lot of this sport is neurological, so relaxation is essential. The nervous system
must be trained to initiate the mobilization of the proper muscle fibers and go to different energy
sources as the run gets longer. After 2 hours, the slow twitch (ST) fibers become somewhat
fatigued, even at a relatively easy pace, forcing more fast twitch (FT) units to be recruited as the
distance piles up. Over time, this allows the FT fibers to become oxidative by enhancing fuel
storage capability, increasing mitochondrial enzyme (as well as the sheer size and number of
mitochondria themselves), and multiplying the number of blood vessels per fiber.
The effect of FT fiber recruitment during a long run is important for races as short as 1,500
meters, and the benefit can be magnified by picking up the pace by about 10 secs. per mile for
each of the last 2 miles. This helps counteract ventilatory drift at the most critical time in the
long run, and it brings even more FT fibers into play. More carbohydrate is used as fuel at faster
speeds, as well, so gradually picking up those last couple of miles trains the body to use the
muscle fibers and the fuel sources in the same sequence that they will ideally be used in a race. A
few light buildups can be inserted in the last mile of a long run if desired, rather than using a
pace pickup over the final few miles.
Occasional long tempo runs can be performed if preparing for a marathon race. Usual long run
guidelines follow on these; i.e., start slower and finish faster, with the bulk of the run at the target
(marathon) pace or a few seconds per mile faster. Most people do easy long runs when preparing
for marathons, but it’s somewhat unrealistic to go into a marathon without having had some
moderately long outings at the goal pace! In practice, these seem to yield the best results if 3-4
such runs are used, spaced about 3 weeks apart, with the last coming roughly 3 weeks prior to the
marathon race itself. The first long tempo effort should be 12-13 miles in length, the second
about 15-17 miles, and the third from 17-18 miles (possibly up to 20 for a very experienced
marathoner, or if the run is done at least 3 weeks prior to the goal race). A fourth long tempo of
13-17 miles can be added in there somewhere, but remember to get plenty of recovery between
these efforts and balance them with other workouts. Long races (such as 25K-30K) can serve as
tempos provided the pace is kept under control early on. These runs also provide the chance to
practice taking fluids while running at race pace, and to experiment with pre-run foods or fluids
which will possibly be used on race day.
Lots of carbohydrates should be taken following a long run (and the next day, as well). This
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will necessitate plenty of water, since carbs are "thirsty" (2.7 grams of water are needed to
properly load each gram of glycogen). Sufficient protein intake should also be maintained to
promote tissue repair, especially during periods of high mileage.
A short to medium length easy run the day before a long one is the usual policy. Three or four
light buildups on this run often help the legs feel a little springier and stronger on the long run
the next day. It doesn't hurt to have an easy long run come the day after a race of 5K or less,
either, but longer races may be too stressful to the muscles to follow with a long day. It's
generally best to think of long days as hard days, regardless of pace.
A very short, very easy "shake-out" run should normally be done on a soft surface the day after
a long outing. It also helps greatly to get in a swimming pool right after the "shake-out" and do
some easy flutter kicks, leg crossovers, and deep water running. This works out some kinks
without impact, and the water is also a little therapeutic. Water running delivers a strong torque
and actually helps build bone density. The "shake-out" jog can be skipped altogether in the event
of extreme muscle fatigue or incipient injury. This very short (or nothing) day provides the
chance to replenish some red blood cells which may have been crushed in the capillaries in the
feet during the long run. This is known as "march hemoglobinuria", so called because armies that
do 30-50 mile marches often have this problem and the killed red cells get passed through the
urine.
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Running is just a hobby for most everyone here. So if you can’t commit to a training plan and instead cram as much mileage into a the limited amount of time you have. Do it if you enjoy running and be in decent shape.

Malmo is right though that it is not optimal to have one day take up a huge percentage of your weekly mileage. But again, since it is recreation for the OP. Do what you want/can.

I'm well aware of your take on long runs and I actually agree with it and I don't really do any long runs myself (except for progressive long tempos).

However, training is individualized. What works for Salazar may not work for OP and I don't think the OP is at Salazar's level, and logging 120mpw+ on end.

Right now OP is seemingly getting results. I said seemingly, because as someone has already pointed out, you can't attribute improvements to a single variable, at least not easily, which I agree. And most of all he believes in his training and seems to be enjoying it. Even if it turns out to be a placebo, so what? A placebo still has an effect!

Beside, a 2-hrs long run isn't really that long. It isn't like he's doing 3+hrs which would certainly take a toll in the long run (pun intended), unless he foolishly hammers it every single week. So I would say good for him rather than talking him out of it. It may not be the ideal way to train, but not every one afford to train ideally anyway.