At the very least it seems like there's an inner circle to BTC. See when DeBues-Stafford left the team, and her claim that went uncontested by Houlihan's statement or by the team, that she didnt get told about Shelby's ban until the week the public found out, and that she and Lucia Stafford didn't know Shelby was being coached by Schumacher during her ban until they showed up for 2021 Fall training.
It shows that a group of in the know people in the team are capable of hiding pretty massive secrets from even their teammates for 6+ months with success. That's pretty wild.
IDK how I would feel if I were in GDS' position. I think I would understand it on an intellectual level (as I think she did) that she was not told, and be thankful that she didn't know so she didn't have to think about it, but I wouldn't be able to help but feel a whole lot of betrayal and frankly disrespect knowing that coaches and several athletes knew that a runner was suspended for doping for six months. I get why she calls that experience traumatizing.
I mean yeah, if you really think it's a burrito that caused it but you don't warn the athletes you coach/your teammate "hey I think I got a positive test eating at this place in our town, don't go there." Or "hey guys, be extra careful about eating unsourced meat/get organic, traceable meat. Maybe keep a sample if you dont know where you came from in case you get tested." If it's really as common and plausible as they made out you think they would be warning everyone.
Then yeah, if my coach was going to coach a banned athlete then damn right I'd want him to run it by me first. Thats not a "easier to ask forgiveness than permission" kind of issue.
Money. Once he confessed there was nothing else to do. Just business.
Doping isn't evil. It is cheating to win, and even then it is very easy to rationalize ("everyone does it"). When the USPS sponsorship began there had already been major doping scandals in cycling like the Festina affair at the 1998 Tour. They and all the other big sponsors knew exactly what they were getting involved with. But they deemed it worthwhile. It was still good advertising. No one at the head of USPS directed the team to dope. Rather they invested in and hired people and told them to win in a dope infested sport.
Nike though is a special case. Its top executives had a direct connection to the sport of running. NOP was created specifically as a vehicle to make US runners competitive internationally in the EPO age. You think in starting NOP the Nike brass did not know what they were getting into? No one is that stupid. In the post-epo era there is one way that distance runners can compete internationally. No way around it.
Anyway none of this is complicated or conspiratorial.
So why did Armstrong’s contract require him to repay his salary in the event he used PEDs?
You say Nike expects it athletes to cheat. Nike is an “it” but it’s employees are a “they” and which ones expected BTC to cheat? Did someone actually tell Schumacher that or was it a wink and a nudge? If a total of 50 people are involved, are all of them going to be willing to lie under oath after the sh*t hits the fan?
Before a contract is signed, the BTC would need to disclose to the runner that he/she is required to cheat. If they didn’t, they could sued when that athlete learns the BTC is a cesspool of cheaters.
The payoff for all these people putting their careers on the line would be Grant and Emma winning Bronze Medals.
It's unlikely that Nike expects their athletes to cheat. They probably prefer that they don't but what they expect is that their athletes meet the performance standards outlined in their contracts and do what's necessary to do so. If that means doping, you dope.
The way this worked at Athletics West was that Dick Brown gave talks to athletes about various PEDs, what improvements they'd provide, whether or not they were legal, what would happen if you were caught using an illegal one, how best to avoid having that happen to you, what sorts of negative affects a drug could produce, and so on. But it was always up to the athlete to choose whether to use a PED.
Of course neither NOP nor BTC are AW so maybe procedures have changed. I've seen Nike contracts from AW era and there were clauses that allowed Nike to void the contract if an athlete was caught using something illegal. But you had to be caught. And the wording only allowed Nike to void the deal. It wasn't required.
the reason it seems like a group-sponsored choice is the repeated passes, the access to illegal or hard to find substances, etc...
PEDs pretty much all have legitimate medical purposes. They are not at all "illegal or hard to find." EPO, for example, is used to treat people with low red blood cell count. Athletes/coaches have repurposed legitimate medical drugs for use in aiding athletes' performances.
I couldn't help but be a bit leery/suspicious/cynical seeing the successes of BTC athletes this past weekend. I mean, I really want to cheer for Grant, Karissa, etc, and think that Jager could be a cool story, but with all of the SH stuff, and the way BTC handled it, I'm left with some doubts...which is too bad if these runners are actually squeaky clean.
I wish BTC did a better job explaining their side of the story (and not continue to work with SH to the point where at least one athlete had to leave due to the distraction and lack of clarity of having her around!)...maybe I could have celebrated these athletes and their accomplishments more.
It was really disappointing how BTC coaches + athletes read the Nike lawyer talking points right when the SH stuff went down. I think most of us saw right through that. Then they had Shalane go on her marathon press tour to have us forget about things. Lost a lot of respect for them. Really liked what they had built. Really liked a lot of their athletes. You can't tell me all of the comings/goings from the group were purely performance based. & now they've done nothing to really earn our trust back. They're not even trying.
Also, Schumacher's terrible performance when he claimed to not know what nandrolone was. Unbelievable. Literally.
Huge congratulations to all the BTC athletes who have respectfully earned their spots on the USA team. Almost all of them have come back from injury, an illness, etc., and deserve to be applauded. None of them (Shelby aside) have ever given anyone reason to criticize their character. And if you follow other pro runners they all seem equally happy for their accomplishments. Boom. 🇺🇸👏🏻💪🏻
Now we certainly would not want to traffic in conspiracy theories. So tell me, was Shelby Houlihan getting caught for doping a conspiracy? And I could have sworn Schweizer and Cranny were her close knit teammates and training partners.
Not to interrupt a good rant. But at the risk of sounding jealous, when Schweizer ran 14:26 with her pal Houlihan, was she clean or on PEDs? Would love to know what you think.
Now we certainly would not want to traffic in conspiracy theories. So tell me, was Shelby Houlihan getting caught for doping a conspiracy? And I could have sworn Schweizer and Cranny were her close knit teammates and training partners.
Not to interrupt a good rant. But at the risk of sounding jealous, when Schweizer ran 14:26 with her pal Houlihan, was she clean or on PEDs? Would love to know what you think.
The only evidence you have against Schweitzer is that she ran 14:26.
Oh and the fact that her training partner is banned for doping. But yes, that is pretty convincing evidence.
Call us when she gets popped. Otherwise it's all speculation and looks like sour grapes. Is Monson under the same suspicion after running 14:31 and having a coach who admittedly dabbled in "grey area" doping?
It's true. I don't like cheaters. Call it sour grapes. A vendetta. A flaw. Who cares? I'm not naive about the sport.
The percentage of dopers in sports that actually get caught is very low. Before Shelby got caught it was the same run around. People would point to the times, the progressions, absence of fatigue, changes in physique, etc. Apologists would respond by claiming it was latent talent and hard work (because no other athletes worked hard apparently) and that she seemed humble and nice, etc. They still do. Often it is a matter of seeing the red flags. Just so happens that all of them are present with BTC. It is like arguing that Lance Armstrong's teammates were clean and that he was the only bad apple.
If you are running in the 14:30s I would say its doping across the board.
Speaking of grievances, you sound emotionally invested. Its ok.
Does anyone else find Courtney Frerichs' perfectly timed peaks / 20-30 second SBs every single year at least a little suspicious? I can't tell if I'm witch hunting them all b/c of Shelby, but her timing just seems so so perfect every single year for the international stage.
Does anyone else find Courtney Frerichs' perfectly timed peaks / 20-30 second SBs every single year at least a little suspicious? I can't tell if I'm witch hunting them all b/c of Shelby, but her timing just seems so so perfect every single year for the international stage.
Lol that's not how doping works dude.
Agreed. That's not the suspicious thing about Courtney Frerichs.
It's true. I don't like cheaters. Call it sour grapes. A vendetta. A flaw. Who cares? I'm not naive about the sport.
The percentage of dopers in sports that actually get caught is very low. Before Shelby got caught it was the same run around. People would point to the times, the progressions, absence of fatigue, changes in physique, etc. Apologists would respond by claiming it was latent talent and hard work (because no other athletes worked hard apparently) and that she seemed humble and nice, etc. They still do. Often it is a matter of seeing the red flags. Just so happens that all of them are present with BTC. It is like arguing that Lance Armstrong's teammates were clean and that he was the only bad apple.
If you are running in the 14:30s I would say its doping across the board.
Speaking of grievances, you sound emotionally invested. Its ok.
You’ve said in other posts that even good people cheat and you might do so yourself if you were an elite runner, but now you don’t like cheaters? You’re opinions are all over the map, but yet you insult other posters.
I tend to be ambivalent. On the one hand I think it is impossible to compete at the top levels of the sport with any chance to win without doping. So in the context of the sport in general and the nature of international competition, I'm kind of resigned. I understand why an athlete would make those choices and cheat. But still I recognize that not every athlete is doping. The US Championships had a bunch of clean athletes judging from their times, progressions, fatigue threshold, histories. Those are the athletes I feel bad about. Then you realize again that there are actual victims in this game, that not "everyone" does it. And when you see the same team bankrolled by the biggest name in the industry being so blatant about it year after year, well they derserve the scorn they get.
I tend to be ambivalent. On the one hand I think it is impossible to compete at the top levels of the sport with any chance to win without doping. So in the context of the sport in general and the nature of international competition, I'm kind of resigned. I understand why an athlete would make those choices and cheat. But still I recognize that not every athlete is doping. The US Championships had a bunch of clean athletes judging from their times, progressions, fatigue threshold, histories. Those are the athletes I feel bad about. Then you realize again that there are actual victims in this game, that not "everyone" does it. And when you see the same team bankrolled by the biggest name in the industry being so blatant about it year after year, well they derserve the scorn they get.
You can’t have it both ways. I posted that only people with low character, with the exception of those trying to escape poverty, cheat and that Fisher, because of the effort he’s put into his education, is extremely unlikely to be cheating. You responded by saying even good people will cheat.
There is zero evidence that Nike is bankrolling cheating and having good results from their athletes is not being blatant about doping. In a nutshell, you’re opinion seems to be that doping is OK so long as it’s not a BTC runner.
You keep referring to Houlihan and Schweitzer, but the latter was not busted for doping and that will create reasonable doubt for an juror.
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