Three more Kenyan runners busted

Renato circled around these questions, but in general you're just not processing the differences between cultures. Kisorio isn't retired kicking his feet up and chilling in some Flagstaff townhouse. He doesn't move to call up Ray Flynn or Stephen Haas because he was perusing an email on his laptop and doesn't think he should be getting those pestering emails about drug tests any more.

What you are missing is that Kenya has 60 athletes (men and women) who are 1500m and up in the AIU RTP. Canada has 3. Kenyan anti-doping as you can see from these whereabouts bans and some of their other suspensions tests at least their top 80 men and women in events like the HM/Marathon/10,000 etc. So we are talking about 300-400 athletes who are under scrutiny. It's probably more because clearly they even go after guys who aren't competing. In Canada, we are talking realistically about 15-20 who are good enough to warrant OOC testing (if that). And as I noted, they are only getting tested domestically and who knows how often. If Kenya was this cheating hotbed you are claiming their best athletes who are tested by the AIU, Kenyan anti-doping and compete at Diamond Leagues and major marathons with very high frequency would be getting busted with a lot of regularity. OR maybe they have some undetectable drugs in Kenya. Which makes a ton of sense with the whereabouts failures, which are nonsensical if your drugs are undetectable.

"Why do people consider Letsrun to be toxic?"

Just following up for some wild statistics to me.

There is one Moroccan athlete (El Bakkali) who is worthy of being in the AIU RTP. One. There are zero Algerian distance or mid-distance athletes if you exclude Makhloufi who hasn't competed in 31 months. A stunning fall for North African athletics. Russia meanwhile has zero running athletes in distance/middle-distance. You may draw your own conclusions about this.

There is no record of him being a Dr, but they called him a Wizard from Italy.

So maybe people should call him Wizard Canova. For all the 'magic' surrounding him.

Such tripe.

There are many 'athletes' trying to make money on the circuit.

Its a living, and as registered athletes they have to face the same rules.

And if they cheat and get court, its an easy way for a corrupt organization to say they are doing their job.

These guys are smoke screen for the rest of the more highly rated Kenyan athletes.

An athlete that commits a whereabouts violation has repeatedly failed in their obligation to be available to testers. That athlete is either egregiously stupid or doping. The latter is why the violation is treated the same as failing a doping test.

As you say, a 2.20 athlete who commits a doping violation is no different from a 2.03 athlete in that regard. Doping control is not confined to the top of the sport but applies to all athletes who are competing. Even farmers.

This reminds me of Lukezic's ban for refusing a test a year after retiring.

You never learn ... stubborn like you are.

The difference between Morocco and Kenya in Tokyo was two medals.

You are a sport agonizing nation.

I don't disagree and really this is a potential can of worms thing. For example, culture and economy reign in the some of the differences. For example, Canadians play soccer, basketball, baseball and hockey at a high rate. Soccer, basketball and baseball are very accessible. Hockey is where the glory and potential money or scholarships are....baseball and basketball as well. You know a Canadian invented basketball, right?

To quote John Cleese, ...so, anyway....

Canadians and for that matter most of Europe, Oceania, North America and much of Asia have populations that are not interested in athletics. This is because of the lack of financial gain against the effort. I would argue that mid-d and distance runners are the hardest training athletes (within their sport/event) of just about any. The time investment as well as the likelihood for injury and the absolute clear indication of success (vs., the almighty clock) can deter potential athletes.

In East Africa to make it in running, even not at the very top, is financially worth the time investment. In East Africa it is a way to earn money or for some riches. For non-East Africans it is often a commitment to poverty, although a partial or full-ride scholarship in the NCAA is well worth it.

I remember a top Canadian marathon runner selling his shoes to pay for dental work. Even at a minimum wage job in Canada people don't sell stuff to pay for dental work....ridiculous. So, why bother, right?

So, with few Canadians (or other richer countries) bothering to try the sport, there are going to be few athletes worth testing and fewer medals earned et al.

How many hockey players or basketball players does Kenya produce? They do what they can do. And for the record, I still think they are the most talented (all of East Africa) and know some Kenyan people and they are wonderful. But that doesn't change the facts. They are doing whatever they can to get ahead and that is competing in athletics and that does include some cheating. 80 athletes +/- suspended at one time is off the charts.

If you were so well informed, it baffles me why are you repeating questions Renato has repeatedly answered.

The something specific is not a question -- but Renato's assertion/opinion that only the few Kenyans who are born and raised and living and already highly trained at altitude will not benefit further by blood doping. He does not claim this as knowledge, but presents it as his opinion based on his life long experience, as opposed to others who do not have this experience.

That you reduce it to "EPO doesn't work on East Africans", and asks "how does he know" tells me you haven't understood which subset of Kenyans he means, and that it is his opinion.

Renato has since expanded this to non-Africans living and training at altitude long enough.

You say 80 Kenyans, but I could only count 51 "ineligible" Kenyans at the AIU website. A few cases are still in progress, but where are the remaining +/-20 coming from?

Indeed the 80 athletes includes maybe 10 for EPO and maybe 5 for ABP (since 2017). 27 are for Norandrosterone (since 2017).

The 80 also includes a handful of top-level athletes, depending on how far down you call "top-level", but most of them are athletes we've never heard of, but for doping.

As for the original article:

It says Kenyan doping was "unabated". This would be reasonable at the end of 2019 or beginning of 2020, but makes little sense in 2022, after 2+ years of COVID when competitions and testing and violations are all down significantly. Comparing 2020-2022 to 2017-2019 the rate of violations has dropped by 50-70%, depending on whether you count "whereabouts" as doping, making the choice of word "unabated" now rather bizarre.

It also references 11 "recent" Kenyan athletes. Besides the three administrative "whereabouts" failures, it includes Joyce Chepkirui, whose alleged infraction dates back to 2019, and her status is currently "no ADRV" until the CAS appeal of the national ruling is completed.

Have even been to East Africa to make these blanket generalisations? No you haven't

I was discussing men's and women's athletics. Kenya had 10 medals. Morocco had 1. If you zoomed out to finalists or semi-finalists, the picture would get even worse. These things can be cyclical, but something major has happened. It's not just Olympics underperformance as well, take a look at on the roads/cross country, and so on.

Point taken.

Your first sentence is correct. There are definitely some athletes who take shortcuts and dope. Often these are lower-level athletes with little to no management and/or poor career prospects.

Your second doesn't follow from your first, which I think Renato and others have expressed about as clearly as can be done. Kenyan anti-doping (to their credit in general) has cast an extremely wide net on a huge pool of runners. So, that combined with the differences in culture will result in the type of whereabouts failures you might not get in the Western World. If you want to use those numbers to build your narrative you can, but it's dumb.

Ask yourself about the athletes that **really** matter (Cheruiyot, Korir, Rotich, Kipchoge, Kamworor, Kipyegon, Jepchirchir, Obiri, Kosgei). They're all in the AIU RTP/ABP, they all race frequently on the roads or track in meets that test. They all are evidently tested by Kenya's anti-doping authorities (considering they test irrelevant athletes at a high rate). Is there a conspiracy I'm missing?

I am steadfastly anti-doping, but discrediting their performances because a couple of washed, retired guys don't bother to show up for their tests. Would you imply Americans like Grant Fisher are doping if Garrett Heath got a whereabouts ban in 2023?

Oh yes, the conspiracy you allege but can't prove. It just so happens that the AIU must be in on it as well because that's a sophisticated and thorough independent body disproportionately testing Kenyans. Yet ,there must be coordination with the Kenyan anti-doping domestic authorities to cover up for the stars in the AIU's jurisdiction while busting retired/low-level Kenyans to keep up the facade. Which is why they busted Asbel Kiprop, Wilson Kipsang and Jemima Sumgong . Wait, what?

LOL!

Looked at world athletics a bit. The 2:08 barrier has been broken by 231 people representing Kenya. 2 representing Britain, and im sure Coevett isn't a fan of one of them.

Anyways, of the 231, roughly 80% are of the same ethnic minority, which yields the obvious explanation that these people have a natural tendency to dope in hopes of destroying the popularity of athletics in Europe.

Or something.

I would more than imply. I'd be pretty convinced they're doping and decided to take the shorter suspension that comes with a whereabouts violation. Why would I not? They get three chances to show. It's easy to think one miss is an accident but three?