Dope testing started in the 60s not about cheating, but to try to rescue the sport's image from being tainted by the drug using hippie image which was big deal back then. Drugs were bad! Not so much anymore.
If they want to deal with cheating, they should bring NCAA testing up to WADA standards. The way it's done right now invites athletes to get away with microdosing. There has to be on the spot midnight surprise testers.
, but honestly, he’s like 65 and I don’t think a 19:xx 5k is going to qualify him.
65 and sub-20 5k? He's juicing :) That's an age-adjusted sub 13. Not quite the hobby-jogger.
At 62, and mostly tri-guy, from what I've heard a lot of 50+ tri folks are juicing one way or another. I never figured out why, except personal vanity. I want to be faster, yes, yes. But if I can't get there through training and nutrition, then I might as well hide a small motor on my bike and shorten the bike segment. That'll get me to the top of my age group.
Nonsense.
20 min for 5k is respectable, but not particularly outstanding for age 65. I'm just coming up to 65 (next month) and recently time-trialed 9k at 20:24 pace, with the fastest 3 miles in that run equaling 20:09 5k pace.
I'd be very disappointed if I couldn't run sub-20 this year.
I personally think the majority of the non-elite dopers will be older guys. I'm sure there's some OTQ-level people who juice, but I can't imagine too many of them knowing the risk/reward. The biggest demographic is probably the competitive 40–60 year old crowd. I know a guy, in his late 50s or early 60s, always been reasonably fit but never crazy fit, runs NYC almost every year. I think he cracked 3:00 in the marathon a few decades ago. Anyway, he recently went from "good looking fit grandpa" to "massive bulging veins in his biceps" in like a year and it's hard not to be very suspicious, especially considering he was never into strength training. Dude pulled a Jeff Bezos.
Related, I believe West Side Runners in NYC had some sub-elite guys get popped a while ago. Their circumstances are very different from most hobby joggers like me, many were racing for their livelihoods and sending money back to their home countries. So they'd go out and win competitive but not-too-competitive local races almost every weekend.
I personally think it’s you naive kids who imagine that aging will not affect you and that you’ll be running sub 16 5ks at age 55 LOL. It’s a select few who have the genetics, will, and luck to be able to push hard at that age.
Triathletes are far more into doping than runners. After spending $5k-10k on equipment, not including travel and entry fees and hours every day trading, and looking to squeeze out every bit of performance for their investment of money and time, using PEDs is not much of a leap.
woukd I love to run significantly faster? Sure would, but I know how much I’m pushing and how easy it is to get nagging injuries. At 50+ it’s all about consistent training without getting injured.
Testosterone, thyroid medications, truckloads of amphetamines, corticosteroids...yes. Whatever they can get away with on a prescription from a complicit or easily duped doctor.
Source: I am a pharmacist. And you really wouldn't believe how many local age groupers have "low T".
Testosterone, thyroid medications, truckloads of amphetamines, corticosteroids...yes. Whatever they can get away with on a prescription from a complicit or easily duped doctor.
Source: I am a pharmacist. And you really wouldn't believe how many local age groupers have "low T".
Thyroid medication isn't doping.
Source: WADA.
Ryan Hall had low testosterone.
Source: Ryan and Sara Hall
Overtraining can lower your testosterone, as can aging.
Source: Multiple anecdotal and research. e.g. "Kuipers H, Keizer HA. Overtraining in elite athletes. Review and directions for the future. Sports Med. (1988) 6:79–92. 10.2165/00007256-198806020-00003" and "Hypogonadism in Exercising Males: Dysfunction or Adaptive-Regulatory Adjustment? Front Endocrinol (Lausanne). 2020; 11: 11."
I think this would be a good anonymous letsrun poll.
Agreed. I asked in the first place because I'm also perplexed that there may be people out there who are doping even though there's no tangible benefit for them. Maybe they just don't think of doping as cheating and want to see what they're capable of?
Doping allows you to avoid many injuries, train harder, and train more frequently. Rather than finishing a long run feeling like a dog’s breakfast, you feel great. That runners high is easier to reach and stays longer. Plus, if you’re competitive with yourself, your times get faster. I can’t understand why anyone over 50 isn’t doping… provided you aren’t competitive, of course.
Take a race like CIM or Boston - do you think there's a statistically significant number of non-elite runners on the sauce?
I ran at a decent D1 college. We had a kid on the team who was a walk-on. Mediocre high school runner. His aunt was a doctor and started providing him with unneeded thyroid meds, an albuterol inhaler, and eventually he was somehow able to get a hold of EPO. He ended up running 14-low for 5k.
The kid was an absolute utter a*shole and clearly had no problem cheating others out of their hard work. Of course our coach at the time ate up his performances as a walk-on attributing it to "hard work" and praising him to recruits while the rest of us knew the truth. He kicked my a*s 90% of the time. I was fine losing and not cheating.
Thyroid meds will do nothing for you except possibly help you lose a little weight.
Testosterone, thyroid medications, truckloads of amphetamines, corticosteroids...yes. Whatever they can get away with on a prescription from a complicit or easily duped doctor.
Source: I am a pharmacist. And you really wouldn't believe how many local age groupers have "low T".
Thyroid medication isn't doping.
Source: WADA.
Ryan Hall had low testosterone.
Source: Ryan and Sara Hall
Overtraining can lower your testosterone, as can aging.
Source: Multiple anecdotal and research. e.g. "Kuipers H, Keizer HA. Overtraining in elite athletes. Review and directions for the future. Sports Med. (1988) 6:79–92. 10.2165/00007256-198806020-00003" and "Hypogonadism in Exercising Males: Dysfunction or Adaptive-Regulatory Adjustment? Front Endocrinol (Lausanne). 2020; 11: 11."
Testosterone is a banned drug. Prescriptions for testosterone have gone through the roof in recent years (source: ABC) and are predicted to increase even further. So many athletes with low-T nowadays. Or just doping like crazy, as they do.
I ran at a decent D1 college. We had a kid on the team who was a walk-on. Mediocre high school runner. His aunt was a doctor and started providing him with unneeded thyroid meds, an albuterol inhaler, and eventually he was somehow able to get a hold of EPO. He ended up running 14-low for 5k.
The kid was an absolute utter a*shole and clearly had no problem cheating others out of their hard work. Of course our coach at the time ate up his performances as a walk-on attributing it to "hard work" and praising him to recruits while the rest of us knew the truth. He kicked my a*s 90% of the time. I was fine losing and not cheating.
Thyroid meds will do nothing for you except possibly help you lose a little weight.
You know this personally? And weight loss wouldn't help an endurance athlete, would it?
Testosterone is a banned drug. Prescriptions for testosterone have gone through the roof in recent years (source: ABC) and are predicted to increase even further. So many athletes with low-T nowadays. Or just doping like crazy, as they do.
Understandable among competitive older men when overtraining and old age both lower testosterone.
If you are not subject to WADA's banned substance list, and have a doctor's prescription, there is nothing wrong with taking testosterone.
Thyroid meds will do nothing for you except possibly help you lose a little weight.
You know this personally? And weight loss wouldn't help an endurance athlete, would it?
According to WADA, this was the unanimous opinion of scientific and medical experts.
In 2016, "WADA has opted to leave thyroid medication off its 2016 prohibited list after consulting scientific and medical experts who "were unanimous in their view"."
Unanimous: "fully in agreement", "(of an opinion, decision, or vote) held or carried by everyone involved"
And not just once: "This is third year that Ukad have submitted a proposal for thyroid medication to be added to the prohibited list."
Testosterone is a banned drug. Prescriptions for testosterone have gone through the roof in recent years (source: ABC) and are predicted to increase even further. So many athletes with low-T nowadays. Or just doping like crazy, as they do.
Understandable among competitive older men when overtraining and old age both lower testosterone.
If you are not subject to WADA's banned substance list, and have a doctor's prescription, there is nothing wrong with taking testosterone.
If you are competing in masters sport it is doping.
You know this personally? And weight loss wouldn't help an endurance athlete, would it?
According to WADA, this was the unanimous opinion of scientific and medical experts.
In 2016, "WADA has opted to leave thyroid medication off its 2016 prohibited list after consulting scientific and medical experts who "were unanimous in their view"."
Unanimous: "fully in agreement", "(of an opinion, decision, or vote) held or carried by everyone involved"
And not just once: "This is third year that Ukad have submitted a proposal for thyroid medication to be added to the prohibited list."
So why does anyone take it if they don't benefit from it?
Prevalent? I don't know. I do know at least a dozen people that dope for the "fun of it" because they know they will never get tested. Their attitude it "so what if I get tested" I'm not breaking any records.
No you don't.
Your right. After thinking about it and making several phone calls to dopers and their friends, I realized I know way more than a dozen that have used some sort of banned substance.
I know PEDs like testosterone/hgh are readily available for older runners via "anti-aging" clinics, so it makes sense to me that there may be a fairly large number of older age-groupers doping this way. It also isn't hard to get your hands on OTC "supplements" like DHEA or stimulants like ephedrine, and I wouldn't be surprised if there were people using such substances at any given race.
Where do amateur athletes get stuff like EPO, though? I've personally never come across it or anyone using it (as far as I know). I would imagine there aren't a whole lot of amateurs/recreational athletes using EPO.
According to WADA, this was the unanimous opinion of scientific and medical experts.
In 2016, "WADA has opted to leave thyroid medication off its 2016 prohibited list after consulting scientific and medical experts who "were unanimous in their view"."
Unanimous: "fully in agreement", "(of an opinion, decision, or vote) held or carried by everyone involved"
And not just once: "This is third year that Ukad have submitted a proposal for thyroid medication to be added to the prohibited list."
So why does anyone take it if they don't benefit from it?
Funny you agree with the experts, until you don't. Recall WADA's threshold is quite low, only requiring a subjective opinion of a "potential to enhance performance", and all of the science and medical experts "were unanimous in their view" when deciding against banning thyroid. That makes it no different than aspirin.
Aren't you taking aspirin daily with a prescription? Are you benefiting from that? Of course you must be. Why else would you take it if you don't benefit from it? But then, here's what you said just a few weeks ago: "For my health. You know nothing about medicine. You just make garbage up."
So I guess you already knew the answer. People take it for health reasons, and you know nothing about medicine and you make garbage up.
Thyroid meds will do nothing for you except possibly help you lose a little weight.
You know this personally? And weight loss wouldn't help an endurance athlete, would it?
Yes. I know this personally. I had a “hot” tumor in my thyroid and had most of my thyroid removed 10 years ago. Over the years I have used T4, T3, and both. I’ve adjusted dosing up and down and closely monitored what this does to me. Thyroid medication is not a PED.
According to WADA, this was the unanimous opinion of scientific and medical experts.
In 2016, "WADA has opted to leave thyroid medication off its 2016 prohibited list after consulting scientific and medical experts who "were unanimous in their view"."
Unanimous: "fully in agreement", "(of an opinion, decision, or vote) held or carried by everyone involved"
And not just once: "This is third year that Ukad have submitted a proposal for thyroid medication to be added to the prohibited list."
So why does anyone take it if they don't benefit from it?
Masters runner here, 60s and running 62 for 10 miles this past year, so in relatively decent fitness but not anywhere near the very top. I have had lifelong asthma mostly as a kid but it came back in my 30s. Had a couple ER visits as a kid and one as an adult (after doing V02 workout at 2F). No TUE needed for albuterol, but it's not a performance "enhancer" especially at low doses. I take two puffs 20 minutes before a hard workout or some races (not the 23 in a day as Rupp et al. were purported to use). Other than that a couple cups of tea or coffee and ibuprofen as needed.
I travel some to big races and know many top age group racers age 45 and up. Contrary to what is said in this thread, doubt that it is super wide-spread in distance running. Maybe more so in cycling and triathlon, or sprinting but not familiar with the individuals and dynamics/culture of those sports.
Read these threads and you'd think 50% of the top 20 for any given age group at WMMs or bigger road races are doing something illegal. That's probably way off. But you can't expect to have a rational discussion on letsrun.