Girls 800 National High School Champ Speaks Out About Transgenders in Sports

So trans inclusion in female sport is ok with you if it isn't elite. Very generous of you. You're telling women who play sport recreationally - and recreational sport includes most of us, male or female - that they should just get over it if they get beaten by males who identify as females. Really, you might as well say there is no need for a separate category for women's sport except at the elite level. But the reason for excluding males at elite female levels still applies at the recreational level - males have an advantage. However, in your superior wisdom you've decided "inclusivity" is more important than fairness - provided no prize money is involved. I guess sport only matters if you are getting paid. If not, it is simply trivial pursuits. Why should anyone care?

So, in your book males get to compete against and beat females in the female category. But why should women expect fairness in sport? That's apparently only reserved for males. However, the contradiction in views like yours is glaringly obvious: fairness does matter, but it is only the fairness that says sport should be open to everyone, regardless of gender. That it makes the sport itself unfair for most of its competitors is somehow irrelevant to your definition of the word. I guess that is the outcome when you have decided that sport is a political instrument - when it suits - and not something to be enjoyed simply for its own sake.

Admittedly, I struggle with this sometimes too. Gun to my head and I had to draw the line, I'd say post-college is where I'd put it. I really don't see the need to enforce a ban on trans athletes at the youth, HS, and NCAA level.

However, it just reconciles much easier in my mind to have consistent policies for all levels. I can see why a lot of people would say we should achieve that consistency through banning transathletes at all levels, but that just seems to lack decency according to my moral compass.

The male/female difference as it pertains to most sports is substantial and to not acknowledge this would be to deny reality. Creating two sporting categories makes sense and this construct should continue. It’s a construct that has done far more good than bad in the sporting world. We are now talking about the rules surrounding how we assign individuals to the categories. Whatever rules we choose are going to have upsides and downsides. We try to balance maximizing the good while simultaneously protecting the minority and the vulnerable. We want to foster a level playing field and also foster the ability to compete and be inclusive. We should think about what the rule will mean for all involved, what are the likely impacts, then do the best to craft the best possible rule. Practical issues should come into play like how easy or intrusive is it to enforce. For me at the level of youth and HS athletics (xc, T&F) the rule should be nothing more than sign up in your chosen category and compete. I do not however think that rule would be

We make the rules about the categories and how to assign competitors. They are partially grounded in reality, but also arbitrary, so in the end it’s all up to us. The rules are always a by product of the tensIon between fairness and inclusion and safety. There are in fact many sports that define competition categories by weight, others do not. Many sports define competition categories by sex, others do not. Age categories are common. Ability/disability categories are common. Nothing is mandated or absolute. We should create rules for each sport at each level of competition that are mindful of these tensions and achieve the best overall outcome. It’s not an easy task.

joe owner wrote:

Why are leftists against a fair playing field for women?

Where did you come up with that?

Does changing a birth certificate or license make it so? Is sex determined by feel, or by chromosomes?

Perhaps if we just rename the categories "XY" chromosomes and "XX" chromosomes, then it would be settled. Because not even the looniest in the left would argue that Thomas is an actual XX chromosome. No surgery can change your chromosome or DNA (right?)

Maybe I’m just too open to compromise and negotiation. Consistency achieved by banning trans athletes at all levels is wrong and pointless. I’m open to arguments that elite sports should be treated differently. This would only apply in reality to < 1% of people participating in organized sports.

SDSU Aztec wrote:

What men are telling women what to think about transgender athletes? The majority of articles I have read about Thomas, have been very critical of her and virtually all of them at least note she is extremely more competitive as a female. There has been tremendous pressure on the NCAA to ban Thomas and I’m pretty sure most of it has come from men.

The idea that some woke mob has created this issue is nonsense. It all started from a court decision in the 70s and at that time, “woke” meant not being asleep.

You are assuming that the only men who tell young women what they should think are woke leftists. That's NOT what I meant. I was referring to the overwhelming majority of old men who are against inclusion. They claim that they are speaking on behalf of those young women's interests because those young women are too afraid to speak up. Ainsley Erzen or Chelsea Mitchell can speak for themselves. They don't need adult men to speak for them. And then, when Brooke Forde expresses the opposite opinion, she is accused to being "coerced" by her woke father. That is misogynist in my view.

Penn swimmers are afraid to speak up, only because their coaches are woke. (And maybe the entire athletic department.) But they would have no problem at Liberty, BYU or Arkansas (and the vast majority of NCAA institutions.)

The right-wingers believe the leftist woke are the oppressors because they like being victims.

Your interpretation of fairness is only that everyone have the right to participate in whatever sport they choose, regardless of whether this renders the sport unfair as a competition. Your limited and politically motivated application of what fairness means is at odds with every sporting practice and tradition. There are age categories, weight categories, graded accomplishment levels and gender categories that apply in virtually every sport from school level to professional and seniors. They establish the basis of competition but do not determine the outcome. No one has the right to participate as they choose. They must conform with the criteria that apply to eligibility. That is what "fairness" in sport requires. That is the principle you would tread all over because you are consumed with the idea that the participation of a particular minority supersedes everything else. The issue is not about extending rights, like giving people the vote; it is about ensuring a protected category of sports remains protected - or it is lost. But you have to understand sports to understand that. You clearly don't.

Yes, get over it.

Also, stop the nonsense that letting the occasional trans athlete compete is going to undermine and completely destroy the general construct of male/female categories in sports. That’s a silly straw man that is not based in reality.

Wise Old Man wrote:

Yes, get over it.

Also, stop the nonsense that letting the occasional trans athlete compete is going to undermine and completely destroy the general construct of male/female categories in sports. That’s a silly straw man that is not based in reality.

Wow, we should trade handles.

dumbassMF wrote:

Wise Old Man wrote:

Yes, get over it.

Also, stop the nonsense that letting the occasional trans athlete compete is going to undermine and completely destroy the general construct of male/female categories in sports. That’s a silly straw man that is not based in reality.

Wow, we should trade handles.

Wow, you need to do better than that.

I’m involved with youth sports. These episodes are rare and I know the impact on the individual level to the athletes. The 9th grade cis girl who ends up 2nd instead of first in a race is not nearly as a severally impacted as the 9th grade trans girl who is told she cannot run or must run against the boys. You haven’t actually worked with young people If you would conclude differently. The trans girl is not showing up to cynically steal a medal. No, she’s struggled with these feelings for years and is just now having the courage to publically reveal her true self. Have some empathy. This is NOT the same as a trans woman showing up on the start line of Olympic 100 m final and beating ETH. That should not be allowed. It’s apples and oranges.

To me, the position of "Wise Old Man" is 100% pure misogyny and male supremacy.

Wise Old Man appears not to regard girls and women as full human beings who deserve the same level of fair treatment, equal opportunity and civil rights as boys and men in the USA.

To WOM and others with his view, American girls and women being forced to forfeit fairness, safety, dignity and our chance to win in sports, garner awards and enjoy the pleasure and pride of being selected for a team, being best on a team, getting tapped for an invitational, setting records, and winning a league, conference or state championship "is a small price to pay to be sure" that the "gender identities" and selfish wants of males like Lia Thomas are prioritized and the feelings of such males never get hurt by them being told that their demand to be "included" in girls' and women's sports is unreasonable and patently unfair.

It's unreasonable because regardless of how persons like Lia Thomas "identify," dress, wear/style their hair, groom and behave, and no matter what hormones and cosmetic surgeries they avail themselves of, they are and always will be male. It's unfair because going through male development during gestation in utero, the male mini puberty of infancy, and the longer male puberty of adolescence endows persons like Lia Thomas with a plethora of immutable physical characteristics that give them a huge advantage in sports over athletes whose sex is female and for whom the separate category of girls' and women's sports was created in the first place.

To Wise Old Man and all the others who share his misogynistic and male-supremacist point of view, female humans are duty-bound to step aside for the benefit of male humans like Lia Thomas, because we are inherenty second-class and lesser compared to males. WOM seems to regard girls and women as akin to service or support animals; our job and purpose in life is to sacrifice our own ambitions and dreams so that the Lia Thomases of the world can realize theirs.

I can't believe that in 2022 these sort of views are openly being espoused by men in the USA and the rest of the Western world, and that for every man who voices such antiquated, undemocratic and "male chauvinist"

views aloud there are many others who step up to chime in with a "right on, brother!" Or as Hayward Field has said to WOM, "Excellent! You are indeed a wise old man!"

Glad to read that even you draw the line somewhere. We can keep our handles for now although I encourage you to reflect further on your position.

Excellent post RR.

We should have a simple like button here...

Wow, an essay by a high school girl has engendered almost 100 posts. That's empowerment.

I’m the father of two daughters, both great runners, one currently competing in college. I’ve discussed this issue with both of them many times and in fact my elite running daughter does not think I go far enough and would be upset if trans women were barred from her NCAA competitions. I don’t think Lia should be able to compete at that level and she thinks she does and that my view is a white male supremacist view. She told me in HS that if she was in a race that barred a trans girl from running she would have walked off in protest and so would have her teammates. I know you want to paint the opinions of female runners as a monolith, but they are not. I assure you my daughter is not being coerced or forced into these opinions by some woke mob. She genuinely believes that trans girls are her sisters and deserve dignity and the ability to compete as they choose.

Wise Old Man wrote:

This is NOT the same as a trans woman showing up on the start line of Olympic 100 m final and beating ETH. That should not be allowed. It’s apples and oranges.

It's exactly the same thing. Do you think JV girl runners care less about the final race of the season than Usain Bolt cared about the Olympic final? Some of them care every bit as much. The youth, amateur and recreational level is precisely where these rules are most important because that's where thousands of girls and women will have to deal with it personally. Girls already get sent the message in countless ways that they can't accomplish anything because of the circumstances of their birth, and that's what including trans athletes will do: There are only 10 spots on the all-league roster, 7 spots on the varsity team, 5 scorers, and 3 spots on the podium. This is one place where the cost of inclusion comes at the cost of excluding someone else. It's not helping trans teenagers to tell them that their need for inclusion outweighs the concerns of everyone else.

Fairness in sport works like this: we set up rules for competition, and then see who comes out ahead based on those rules. Divisions between classes might be at an arbitrary point on a continuous spectrum, but the principle of the division is not: we draw the line between 145 and 146 pounds for lightweight, for example; the numbers are arbitrary, but the principle of weight advantage is not. If I'm in the 45-54 age group and lose in a race to a 46-year-old, that's just how the race goes. But if I lose to a 29-year-old who feels like he's 51 that day, I'd have a right to be furious. And the sex spectrum is not continuous but discrete, and the principle of the male-female division split isn't arbitrary.

Wise Old Man wrote:

Maybe I’m just too open to compromise and negotiation. Consistency achieved by banning trans athletes at all levels is wrong and pointless. I’m open to arguments that elite sports should be treated differently. This would only apply in reality to < 1% of people participating in organized sports.

Since when did girls's and women's scholastic sports in the USA - which we had to fight tooth and nail for the legal right to have, then we had to spend years building from the ground up - become yours to redefine and dismantle through "compromise and negotiation"? Who the hell are you to "compromise and negotiate" away girls's and women's basic civil rights?

Your sexist, misogynistic, male supremacist position puts all the onus for "inclusion" on females and female athletes, and asks absolutely nothing of males and male athletes. Why is that?

Why aren't you advocating that male sports - and male locker rooms, male communities and males generally - be more inclusive, tolerant, empathic and welcoming of persons like Lia Thomas? Why can't members of your sex start being kinder, nicer and more accepting to those of your sex who "identify as" the opposite sex, and who choose to dress, groom, wear their hair and perhaps behave in ways that strike some as unconventional for males in the current era?

Why should girls and women be forced to have males in our sports; to forfeit our rights to basic fairness, dignity and safety; and to use your word, to "sacrifice" our ambitions and dreams - and to put up with dicks and balls and possible sex pests in our locker rooms and showers too - when it would be so much simpler and easier for boys and men to start accepting and celebrating that members of your own sex are just as diverse in personal style, interests, sexual orientations, claimed and actual "identities" and "gender expression" as males are in musical and food tastes and religious beliefs?

No one here is for "banning trans athletes" at any level or any age. Polls have shown that nearly the entire American population - a whopping 90% - is in favor of including trans athletes in all sports along with all other groups. The difference is, most people believe that for many sound reasons, trans athletes - particularly the male ones - should be included for participation and competition in their correct sex category.

We are not going to convince each other, but your missing my point. As you point out, the rules are arbitrary and there purpose is to create some semblance of fairness. We’ve decided what categories do this and what categories do not, we also take into account practical considerations of implementation and we should be considering the impact of the rules on those affected. There is no doubt that the sex rule makes sense for a lot if not most sports. I have no argument there. In general it is a practical role to apply. Not in all cases mind you. What you do about a DSD athlete in HS? Finally there’s the impact. Have you met a trans adolescent? This young person is not trying to

pull a fast one or take advantage. This is not a boy gaming the system. If this trans young person screws up their courage to express themselves, they are opening themselves up for a rough time. If they have even more courage and show up to run, more power to them. If I’m a meet official and turn them away or force them to run alone or with the group to which they don’t identify, the consequences can be truly devastating. On the other hand I have a group of dedicated cis girls. Yes, they have worked hard and want to win. What’s the consequence to them if they finish 2nd. It’s not nothing true, but it’s simply not on par with the terrible consequences to the trans adolescent. The decision to let the trans youth runner compete as they wish is an easy one. There are some posters that seem to think trans women are simply men trying to take advantage. No, they are trans women, a group more vulnerable and oppressed than even cis women.