1.42.78 Negative Split 800m - 24.6 last 200m!!!

Deanouk wrote:

I do agree with another poster however about the somewhat suspicious era in which Kipketer ran. I think his 48.3 split in his 1:41.24 800m WR was a bit of a give away.

I mean if we are going to be completely honest here, anyone that runs under 1.42 has to be under some suspicion. Yes the late 90's was the EPO era - but the late 70's/early 80's is hardly devoid of suspicion (ie. blood doping, very basic stimulants) and from 2000 onwards micro-dosing in the "grey zone" and ways of getting around everyday prescriptions meds that enhance performance (ie. thyroid and asthma meds) was also very widespread and common.

Really if we want to throw PED use out there, we kind of have to scrutinize everyone, that's why I would prefer to not even contemplate it.

Salvitore Stitchmo wrote:

Deanouk wrote:

I do agree with another poster however about the somewhat suspicious era in which Kipketer ran. I think his 48.3 split in his 1:41.24 800m WR was a bit of a give away.

I mean if we are going to be completely honest here, anyone that runs under 1.42 has to be under some suspicion. Yes the late 90's was the EPO era - but the late 70's/early 80's is hardly devoid of suspicion (ie. blood doping, very basic stimulants) and from 2000 onwards micro-dosing in the "grey zone" and ways of getting around everyday prescriptions meds that enhance performance (ie. thyroid and asthma meds) was also very widespread and common.

Really if we want to throw PED use out there, we kind of have to scrutinize everyone, that's why I would prefer to not even contemplate it.

The trouble is it's there and can't be discounted. Especially from the mid-80's onwards, when EPO was developed, and when there was no way of testing for it till 2003. Kipketer era, unfortunately. If we give him a pass we have to give some women Chinese distance runners and Dibaba a pass, too. If they hadn't been caught we might have considered Kiprop or Ramzi up there with the greatest in their event.

For me, the undoubted presence of doping makes it virtually impossible to make a definitive assessment of any athlete or their performance in at least the last 30-40 years. Before then, doping in distance running hadn't made the same technological advances and was probably much less prevalent.

Armstronglivs wrote:

I would be tempted to put Snell and Coe level with or even ahead of Rudisha for what they achieved in their respective eras.

Snell or Coe are greater over the 800m event than Rudisha? lol, ok.

Snell: WR, 2 OG gold, domination period 5 years (60-64)

Coe: WR, 0 OG gold, 1/4 at European Champs, domination period over 800m, 1-2 years at max but never an actual period.

Rudisha: 3WR, 2 OG gold, 2WC gold, domination period 7 years (2010-2016).

Snell is the only one that has a case and even then, well, not really. Rudisha is the greatest.

That is where some of the rancor in this thread began. It is odd to label Kipketer the best and Rudisha the greatest and then when one pushes back one is told one is not grasping it. I have grasped it all along and still, like you, found it to be an inaccurate use of those words. Let us throw that out and say that if we could put all the best (or greatest) runners in history in an 800m race we do not know who would win. One cannot rule out Juantorena muscling his way to victory, or even Paul Ereng, Hicham El Gourrouj or J Cruz. However, the odds are the winner the would be Rudisha, Kipketer, Cruz or Coe. I only mention Hicham because everybody knows this guy with his 3:26 and 12:50 strength would have been formidable in an Olympic 800m, probably surviving the rounds better than most.

mibro wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

I would be tempted to put Snell and Coe level with or even ahead of Rudisha for what they achieved in their respective eras.

Snell or Coe are greater over the 800m event than Rudisha? lol, ok.

Snell: WR, 2 OG gold, domination period 5 years (60-64)

Coe: WR, 0 OG gold, 1/4 at European Champs, domination period over 800m, 1-2 years at max but never an actual period.

Rudisha: 3WR, 2 OG gold, 2WC gold, domination period 7 years (2010-2016).

Snell is the only one that has a case and even then, well, not really. Rudisha is the greatest.

All valid, but it also needs to be taken into account that the athletes in the amateur era had much shorter careers than present-day professionals and so fewer opportunities to improve on their best. There were no WC outside the Olympics in their era.

However, I would add in furtherance of Snell's case that no one destroyed the world records (for 880y and 800m) as comprehensively as he did. Snell took the 880 record from 1.46.8 to 1.45.1, and he reduced the 800 record from 1.45.7 to 1.44.3 - and on grass. Rudisha's improvements were fractional. Same with Kipketer's records. Coe, on the other hand, carved a huge margin off the record before him and it lasted 16 years. Snell and Coe were also world record-holders over other longer distances. That counts for something.

All were great. Maybe there is no single "greatest"?

I wouldn't bet on El G, despite his strength and stamina. Simply not fast enough in that company. A 1500/5k runner.

Since I am a codger with a long memory I might add this. Lydiard said of Snell's 1.44x on grass that it was worth in the region of 1.42x on mondo and with modern shoes. That was back in '62! The OP has suggested anything under 1.42 invites possible scepticism as to whether it was clean. So take doping out of the equation Snell may have been equal to the best of all time even back in '62. I was reminded of this when I saw that his times at Tokyo '64 would have still beaten the best African athletes at the Delhi Commonwealth Games in 2010. Put him on a track today, with modern training and shoes, and his marathon-trained aerobic strength - and his tremendous kick - I would bet he would definitely pose a serious threat to the very best undoped competition of any era in an Olympic final.

I've never understood really why Kipketer tends to get a free pass here when it comes to the EPO era.

His progression, while maybe not a big red flag in itself, does almost fit the probable roll out of EPO like a glove.

He was on the circuit for four years from 17 - 20 and steadily worked his way down from 1:48.13 to 1:45.46. That's about 2 1/2 seconds in four seasons.

In 1994, just when times across the board started going crazy due to EPO, he improves by over 2 seconds to 1:43.29. The difference between fringe and world class. Over the next 4 years he gets to 1:41.11, and it seems agreed here with better pacing he could have ran 1:40.5 on at least one occasion.

Not saying he wouldn't have been world class without EPO, especially if most of his rivals weren't doping too, but to put him in a other category to Coe or Snell simply on comparison of times is silly. What would Coe or Snell have done running 18 times at their peak in 1997 on great tracks and great pacing AND with full throttle EPO?

Given the confirmed rampant doping in Kenya that has been revealed since then, it's really hard to believe he wasn't all aboard the EPO train when there was zero testing for it.

mibro wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

I would be tempted to put Snell and Coe level with or even ahead of Rudisha for what they achieved in their respective eras.

Snell or Coe are greater over the 800m event than Rudisha? lol, ok.

Snell: WR, 2 OG gold, domination period 5 years (60-64)

Coe: WR, 0 OG gold, 1/4 at European Champs, domination period over 800m, 1-2 years at max but never an actual period.

Rudisha: 3WR, 2 OG gold, 2WC gold, domination period 7 years (2010-2016).

Snell is the only one that has a case and even then, well, not really. Rudisha is the greatest.

You conveniently don’t mention that Coe broke the WR twice, lowering it by 1.71secs, while Rudisha took 3 attempts to lower the WR by 0.2secs.

Coe also broke the indoor WR twice, Rudisha never.

Coe also incorrectly state that Snell was dominant for 5 seasons, whereas in reality he was only ranked no 10 in 1963.

Coe, was world ranked #1 4 times and was in the top 3 for the first time in ‘78 and for the last time in 86. Greater longevity and consistency than Snell.

Yes Coe didn’t win an Olympic gold over 800m, but won 2 silver, which is a better record than Kipketer at the Olympics. And Coe had a greater athlete to contend with over 2 laps, Cruz, than either of Rudisha’s or Kip’ competitors.

You also fail to acknowledge the different eras in which each athlete competed. Rudisha and Kipketer had World Chanps every 2 years with which to acquire gold medals on the global stage. Snell didn’t have that and Coe’s best years occurred before the introduction of the World Champs in 83. So hardly a level playing field to include World Champs results.

Other significant titles/golds that Coe won in his career over 800m were the European Indoor Champs, the European Cup (twice), the World Cup and the European Champs. In an era before the World Champs, the World and European Cups were the most important competitions in each alternate year, far more important than they would become in the 90’s.

Coe lost just 2 races between the Europeans in 78 and 82. That is as dominant as the others being discussed.

The reason I mention Hicham El Guerrouj as a possible factor is that his 3:26 is like running 1:49.86 and then continuing at that pace for another 700m. This takes tremendous ability, whether aided with pharmaceuticals or not. Hicham likely could not run a 1:41xx pace which might mean he could not possibly win this dream matchup with the best or greatest of all time. However, he is invariably overlooked in these discussions, for obvious reasons, but he could be a factor. I wonder how fast he could have run for 800m? Considering Aouita did 1:43 it would not shock me if Hicham had a 1:42xx in him.

Troothsayer wrote:

The reason I mention Hicham El Guerrouj as a possible factor is that his 3:26 is like running 1:49.86 and then continuing at that pace for another 700m. This takes tremendous ability, whether aided with pharmaceuticals or not. Hicham likely could not run a 1:41xx pace which might mean he could not possibly win this dream matchup with the best or greatest of all time. However, he is invariably overlooked in these discussions, for obvious reasons, but he could be a factor. I wonder how fast he could have run for 800m? Considering Aouita did 1:43 it would not shock me if Hicham had a 1:42xx in him.

I wouldn't be so sure that EL G could run a 1:42, at least not while focussing on the 1500m. He was one of many milers in that era (I wonder why?) who suddenly used to double up and run ridiculous 5k times, rather than doubling up with 800m. From the early 90's the majority of 1500 elites had far greater endurance ability than previous generations, while there was no real improvement in their speed. The reason Lagat, El G, Ngeny were all able to run 3:26/3:43 was down to their incredible over distance endurance, not their 800m ability. Lagat was in many elite 800m races during his best years and never managed to break 1:46!

EL G is on record as saying that he could only run 49 secs for 400m in training. I think iirc that his coach said he could have run 48secs in a race.

Either way, he just didn't have the basic speed to be capable of 1:42, in my opinion. In the same way that Ingebrigtsen, a 3:28/12:48 runner only has an 800pb of 1:46.

You are wrong about Snell and his "ranking". In the southern hemisphere 1963 was effectively an off-season for him and to my recollection he did not compete internationally over the half that year. However, coming out of his 1963 off-season he did take on America's best milers - Beatty, Grelle, Wessiger and Burleson - at Modesto and Compton and crushed them. Snell was acknowledged to be clearly still be the best middle distance runner in the world in 1963. There was no effective challenger to his dominance between 1960-64. Elliott could have provided that challenge but he essentially retired after his Rome final.

It should also be acknowledged that Snell repeated his 1960 Olympic crown over the 800 in 1964 - while Coe "only" achieved 2 silver medals over the distance - and in 1962, after shattering the world 880y and 800m records he captured the gold at the only other international championships, which was the Empire Games. And he won the double there, as he did in Tokyo. At Olympic level, which was everything in the early 60's, his winning record is better than Coe's.

I never said Snell wasn’t the main man over the middle distances in 1963, as you put it, I just pointed out that someone ranked No 10 in the world (T&FN) in 1963 couldn’t have been the dominant half miler in ‘63.

I think Coe’s 2 consecutive gold and silver in 2 Games is as good as Snell’s

3 golds in 2 Games when taken in context.

Firstly, many more nations across the world were competing in the 2 lap event by the 1980’s compared to the early 60’s.

Secondly, partly due to point 1 above, the competition was more intense in Coe’s time, as illustrated by the 4 rounds of the 800 event in 84.

Thirdly, Coe had to face and defeat many all time great runners to win his medals (Ovett, Cram, Cruz, Scott, etc), whereas None of Snell’s were of the same calibre.

Snell’s achievements at the Olympics were unique, but easier to achieve in the early 60’s compared to 20 years later. Coe’s 4 medals over 800 & 1500 are also unique in men’s Olympic history.

I never said Hicham could run 1:42 BUT the reason it would not be shocking is:

Aouita 1:43 3:29 12:58

Hicham. 3:26 12:50

It is true that Hicham had a bit more stamina than Aouita but do not assume that he ran 3:26 without having some real turn of speed. Anyway it is pretty obvious that you think Hicham doped. Probably he and Coe both did. I know you disagree but your argument is not persuasive to the unbiased.

Easier to achieve? No one in the history of track had previously accomplished what Snell had in the 60's. He was an amateur working a day job. Coe competed in a professional era with its advantages in training, tracks and shoes. An athlete has to be measured against how well they did against their peers. In that regard Snell was the superior, even though you say it was "easier" for him. There's no way Coe's 2 silver and a gold beats Snell's 3 gold. If so there's many a second place-getter better than a gold medallist of another generation - and Kipketer becomes "better" than Rudisha with a poorer Olympic record. Nope.