Joshua Cheptegei is SUSPICIOUS

rekrunner wrote:

casual obsever wrote:

Why should it?

I don't know -- because PEDs are supposed to work? These are not my theories.

You are the one who said "... shouldn't that mean ...", so it is bewildering that you don't know why it should mean that.

Killeriottt wrote:

You are the one who does not grasp the concept of Occam’s razor. So we have a human being who has run faster than all the other human beings (many of whom have trained extremely hard and used PEDs), and you think it is a wild roaming of the imagination to be suspicious of his utilization of PEDs? Furthermore he has a 1500/5000 performance level which is extremely aberrant. I have already explained this. Maybe he can run faster than 3:37 but something does not add up here. You of course are biased as hell but you like to imply that there are no facts to support those of us who are able to use inferences in a manner which you are simply not able to. Please train yourself to use inferences analytically before your reply.

I don't imply that there are no facts -- I asked you to provide some more facts, and instead of providing any facts, you talk about Occam's razor -- which is not a fact.

Facts are neutral. If you think I am biased as hell, you can restore impartiality with neutral facts.

I just explained the principle of "garbage in, garbage out" applies to your aberrant analysis of 1500m/5000m performances.

For some reasons only you know, you suggest that PEDs can cause these observations, and patterns of performance that would less likely without PEDs -- you have done this while providing no facts about PEDs. Does a PED even exist that will turn a 3:37 1500m runner into a 12:35 5000m and 26:11 10000m runner? Any comparable examples in history of such a pattern, that we can attribute its likelihood to PEDs? We cannot use Occam's razor until we can show that one of the options to choose even exists.

You can be suspicious -- it's a free world -- but it is a suspicion based on imagination and no facts. It is based on your gut feeling that "something doesn't add up here".

casual obsever wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

I don't know -- because PEDs are supposed to work? These are not my theories.

You are the one who said "... shouldn't that mean ...", so it is bewildering that you don't know why it should mean that.

Since they are not my theories -- and the various competing theories can vary so widely, I ask the questions to try and get a better understanding.

I thought the popular belief is that PEDs "work" by making performances faster.

I can't say I "know why" because this domain isn't really one filled with knowledge. No one seems able to explain why from a position of knowledge.

It's the first time I see an suggestion that PEDs "works" so well for 5000m/10000m, but cannot make a sub-3:37 easy. And furthermore, not making sub-3:37 easy is more reason and cause for suspicion than if he had run a Bekele-esque 3:33.

Killeriottt wrote:

IF one has limited basic speed then tremendous endurance is needed. His 1500 benefits but he is more limited in that event. This is not that complicated. IF I take EPO and I can run 26:11 it does not necessarily mean I can run 1:44 or 3:30, for example. Can you not grasp this? So his doping and training is helping him run closer to his maximum for a longer distance.

We can make the same argument without requiring PEDs.

If you don't take EPO and can run 26:11, this does not necessarily mean you can run 1:44 or 3:30.

Because you have limited speed and tremendous endurance.

If EPO could turn 3:37 runners into 12:35 and 26:11 runners, we should have seen a lot more Americans and Europeans running comparable times, during the EPO-era, when there was no WADA or EPO test, because "Lance". This is where historical facts can help.

EPO is not going to be the great equalizer. Cheptegei is very talented as an endurance athlete. So is his countryman Kiplimo. But suddenly they both became world beaters during the Pandemic. Who is currently better than those 2? It is not clear that anyone is better than those 2. Cheptegei improved his 5000 by 22 seconds AFTER he was already a world champion and seasoned world class runner. Continue to have your head buried in the sand: perhaps this is like altitude training for you.

I'm assuming that 3:30 man Musagala ONLY running 3:36 and narrowly beating a distance runner makes you "think" he is taking PEDs as well?

surveysays wrote:

I'm assuming that 3:30 man Musagala ONLY running 3:36 and narrowly beating a distance runner makes you "think" he is taking PEDs as well?

Possibly but he did not even race last year did he?

Killeriottt wrote:

EPO is not going to be the great equalizer. Cheptegei is very talented as an endurance athlete. So is his countryman Kiplimo. But suddenly they both became world beaters during the Pandemic. Who is currently better than those 2? It is not clear that anyone is better than those 2. Cheptegei improved his 5000 by 22 seconds AFTER he was already a world champion and seasoned world class runner. Continue to have your head buried in the sand: perhaps this is like altitude training for you.

"during the pandemic" lol casual exposed. do your googles.

Killeriottt wrote:

surveysays wrote:

I'm assuming that 3:30 man Musagala ONLY running 3:36 and narrowly beating a distance runner makes you "think" he is taking PEDs as well?

Possibly but he did not even race last year did he?

He did not.

Pandemic existed in 2017? wrote:

Killeriottt wrote:

EPO is not going to be the great equalizer. Cheptegei is very talented as an endurance athlete. So is his countryman Kiplimo. But suddenly they both became world beaters during the Pandemic. Who is currently better than those 2? It is not clear that anyone is better than those 2. Cheptegei improved his 5000 by 22 seconds AFTER he was already a world champion and seasoned world class runner. Continue to have your head buried in the sand: perhaps this is like altitude training for you.

"during the pandemic" lol casual exposed. do your googles.

No when I say world beater I mean like world record holder material in this case. I know more about this than you. I do not need google. He jumped to a level which we have never seen before during the Pandemic.

Pandemic existed in 2017? wrote:

Killeriottt wrote:

EPO is not going to be the great equalizer. Cheptegei is very talented as an endurance athlete. So is his countryman Kiplimo. But suddenly they both became world beaters during the Pandemic. Who is currently better than those 2? It is not clear that anyone is better than those 2. Cheptegei improved his 5000 by 22 seconds AFTER he was already a world champion and seasoned world class runner. Continue to have your head buried in the sand: perhaps this is like altitude training for you.

"during the pandemic" lol casual exposed. do your googles.

Your user name implies you think Cheptegei was a world beater in 2017. Please educate yourself. Yeah he won the 2019 World Cross Country and World Championship 10000m in 2019 but then he made a huge leap. Suspicious as hell to the intelligent.

Killeriottt wrote:

EPO is not going to be the great equalizer. Cheptegei is very talented as an endurance athlete. So is his countryman Kiplimo. But suddenly they both became world beaters during the Pandemic. Who is currently better than those 2? It is not clear that anyone is better than those 2. Cheptegei improved his 5000 by 22 seconds AFTER he was already a world champion and seasoned world class runner. Continue to have your head buried in the sand: perhaps this is like altitude training for you.

The problem with your belief is that you are convinced that doping provides more energy. But you can't explain how. And no-one has ever explained it in a rational way.

EPO stimulates the production of red blood cells in bone marrow and regulates the concentration of red blood cells and hemoglobin in the blood. This aids endurance athletes because red blood cells transport oxygen to the cells, including muscles, so they can function more efficiently.

Killeriottt wrote:

EPO stimulates the production of red blood cells in bone marrow and regulates the concentration of red blood cells and hemoglobin in the blood. This aids endurance athletes because red blood cells transport oxygen to the cells, including muscles, so they can function more efficiently.

Wow, no-one ever said that before.

you think like a doper wrote:

Killeriottt wrote:

EPO stimulates the production of red blood cells in bone marrow and regulates the concentration of red blood cells and hemoglobin in the blood. This aids endurance athletes because red blood cells transport oxygen to the cells, including muscles, so they can function more efficiently.

Wow, no-one ever said that before.

Actually they did but you haven’t been paying attention.

Killeriottt wrote:

EPO stimulates the production of red blood cells in bone marrow and regulates the concentration of red blood cells and hemoglobin in the blood. This aids endurance athletes because red blood cells transport oxygen to the cells, including muscles, so they can function more efficiently.

Function more efficiently? Explain how that is possible?

Bear in mind that no-one ever has come up with a rational explanation.

Regardless of whether he’s taking PEDs—and he likely is, considering how fast he’s run—this 3:37 rust-buster in Uganda can’t be compared with his WR effort in the 5k. When he’s in peak 5k shape, I’m guessing he can run:

1:48.0 (54.0)

3:31.0 - (56.27)

7:22.5 - (59.0)

12:35.0 - (60.4)

26:10 - (62.8)

With the pace per lap in parentheses.

When you look at it that way, it’s easy to forgive him for running an unpaced 1500 at a hair under 58/lap as a season opener, probably fresh out of base training.

Killeriottt wrote:

you think like a doper wrote:

Wow, no-one ever said that before.

Actually they did but you haven’t been paying attention.

No, you're the first, ever, in 34 years.

John Wesley Harding wrote:

Regardless of whether he’s taking PEDs—and he likely is, considering how fast he’s run—this 3:37 rust-buster in Uganda can’t be compared with his WR effort in the 5k. When he’s in peak 5k shape, I’m guessing he can run:

1:48.0 (54.0)

3:31.0 - (56.27)

7:22.5 - (59.0)

12:35.0 - (60.4)

26:10 - (62.8)

With the pace per lap in parentheses.

When you look at it that way, it’s easy to forgive him for running an unpaced 1500 at a hair under 58/lap as a season opener, probably fresh out of base training.

What are PEDs? Break it down to molecular level for us?