one last thing. While I don't think most of the Tinman guys are top talent, I'm glad they are going for it. I remember being in my early 20s and thinking, "I don't want to be 75 and wonder what if I'd gone all in."
Along those lines, this is cool.
one last thing. While I don't think most of the Tinman guys are top talent, I'm glad they are going for it. I remember being in my early 20s and thinking, "I don't want to be 75 and wonder what if I'd gone all in."
Along those lines, this is cool.
Also, sorry but Rojo more than stretched his argument here when he says "If that wasn't true, then no one could coach a pro woman (about the level of a good HS boy) and pro man." Let's say, who is Shelby Houlihan and her 14:23 more like, (a) 12:50 diamond league star or (b) DIII men's contender who about matches her time. The answer is clearly (a). There is something special about someone both talented enough AND driven enough to go to the top level.
Drunk Letsrun wrote:
rojo wrote: I mean hell Abbey D'Agostino was a superstar in college and has done very little as apro.
WTF, she did better than you and your brother! She's done better than most collegiate champions, too.
Didn't she make an Olympic team? And suffer a near career ending injury in Rio? How soon they forget.
they should go by Tinmom wrote:
Drunk Letsrun wrote:
WTF, she did better than you and your brother! She's done better than most collegiate champions, too.
Didn't she make an Olympic team? And suffer a near career ending injury in Rio? How soon they forget.
For all intents and purposes it was a career ending injury as she's not been the same since.
they should go by Tinmom wrote:
Drunk Letsrun wrote:
WTF, she did better than you and your brother! She's done better than most collegiate champions, too.
Didn't she make an Olympic team? And suffer a near career ending injury in Rio? How soon they forget.
You’re sadly mistaken if you think the owners of the site really know much about athletics. Ironically, they own an athletics website. They’re shockingly poor in their knowledge of the current goings on/history of the sport.
I wish them all well and hope they meet their goals. My one main criticism of the Tin training was that there was not a focus on raw speed and finishing speed. Strength is only half the equation: you must have leg speed and finishing speed to compete at an elite level no matter the distance. If you don’t have raw speed, you may achieve an impressive time, but you’re not going to touch world elite.
sorauren wrote:
rojo wrote:
But when I first heard of this last week, I said to Jonathan, "Please name one athlete other than Mo Farah who has run way better after switching coaches mid-career."
I hope Jonathan spent the next half-hour giving you examples... starting with a whole bunch of other Salazar athletes like Ritz and Sifan Hassan. In a lot of cases, I don't think it's a case of one coach being "better" than the other. It's more that a change can be beneficial, both physiologically (you're doing different workouts that maybe hit areas you've neglected) and psychologically (you're thinking "NOW I can win off a kick, thanks to these new plyometric drills I've never done before").
Can't believe rojo wrote that either.
Tons of athletes improve. Every Salazar athlete seemed to improve. Ritz improved mid season. Shannon Rowbury.
Outside of track I cite Roger Clemens a lot. It's a bad example as he was a doper but people thought he was fine and he got cut and then with a change of scenery did a ton after ared sox. . maybe they can happen with Hunter.
Tinman is a great coach but I think Drew needed to do soemthing else. Surprised this group which is so big on social mdiakeot this from us.
Not even the Boldest in Boulder wrote:
I have to agree w/ Zante here.
Tinman are good at developing talent to be at a high level, but the Tinman philosophy of Keep the Ball Rolling sort of implies leaving something on the table. I look at guys like Joe Klecker and Dathan's whole ON crew w/ similar credentials to many of the people on the Tinman Elite and I don't really have doubts about who is doing more -- even with the small things and with people who are injured.
If we're talking about doing absolutely everything in order to make Olympic/WC teams, running elite times (3:30/13:00/27:00/60:00), we're talking about not only being a good coach at the running side of things, but a coach who knows how to appropriately blend all the other tiny things (that add up to those last few percentage points like core/drills/stretching/massage/sports psychology/diet/etc.) in order to make that final leap.
dathan seems to be doing a great job but he has 3 Ncaa champion talent runners on his team (klecker, monson , how're) Tinman has one right ? Are the other guys even scorers at Ncaas?
I don't buy the "drew hunter just isn't that talented" excuse. His form sucks....but what did Tinman do to fix it? Nothing. Form can be fixed. And Tinman's training was nowhere near enough to take Hunter to the next level.
wejo wrote:
Not even the Boldest in Boulder wrote:
I have to agree w/ Zante here.
Tinman are good at developing talent to be at a high level, but the Tinman philosophy of Keep the Ball Rolling sort of implies leaving something on the table. I look at guys like Joe Klecker and Dathan's whole ON crew w/ similar credentials to many of the people on the Tinman Elite and I don't really have doubts about who is doing more -- even with the small things and with people who are injured.
If we're talking about doing absolutely everything in order to make Olympic/WC teams, running elite times (3:30/13:00/27:00/60:00), we're talking about not only being a good coach at the running side of things, but a coach who knows how to appropriately blend all the other tiny things (that add up to those last few percentage points like core/drills/stretching/massage/sports psychology/diet/etc.) in order to make that final leap.
dathan seems to be doing a great job but he has 3 Ncaa champion talent runners on his team (klecker, monson , how're) Tinman has one right ? Are the other guys even scorers at Ncaas?
As pointed out above:
Coleman- 2nd in steeple
Templeton- 5th in XC
Griffith-3rd in 1500
Barraza- a bad jump away from 1st
Sidney- D2 NCAA champ a bunch of times
They have more talent than you think they do. Equal to just about every team not sponsored by Nike.
TrackingItOut wrote:
I think Tinman is a very good coach.
That being said, Hunter isn't the only talented runner on the team. If you're deciding talent as one of the top couple in the NCAA, there are several others.
Sidney ran 13:29 for 5k in college before super shoes, beating some of the top guys in the NCAA D1 in the race.
Barraza was a bad jump away from being an NCAA champion, with an 8:30 college steeple PR.
Templeton was 5th at NCAA XC, just 3 seconds behind Morgan McDonald, who won.
Griffith was 3rd at the NCAA championships in the 1500.
Coleman was 2nd at NCAA's in the steeple.
Point being. All of these guys were very good in college. They were among the best in their event in the NCAA. We're they superstars? No. But they were the NCAA equivalent of Ryan Hill, Elise Cranny, Vanessa Frazier, Woody Kincaid, Josh Thompson, and so on.
Again, I think Tinman is a good coach. But let's not continue with the idea that it's Hunter and a bunch of scrubs. From a talent standpoint they are on par with the Beasts, the Reebok group, NAZ elite, and just about every other group besides the main Nike ones.
I agree with some of what you're saying but you're piling on here. Most of the guys you mentioned have not been coached by Tinman for that long. Especially Griffith and Coleman. You can't expect to see massive improvement when you haven't been in the program that long. Out of those guys Templeton has had a great unexpected result when he was second at USATF 5K champs and beat Kipchirchir. Nearly won the damn thing from behind.
rojo wrote:
And check the budgets. Ritz is paid a ton. He has a real budget. Does Tinman even get paid by adidas?
Probably very little, if anything, if he still has to teach, coach, go to school, etc.
But professionalism is about a lot more than budgets.
rojo wrote:
But a college coach has it way easier. Many of them purposely withhold attention. They want the athletes to CRAVE It. They want to appear to be the guru. It's a psychological ploy. Plus creating this 'guru myth' helps in recruiting as well. But you only have to control them for a few years, then they leave.
Except Jenny Simpson.
TrackingItOut wrote:
wejo wrote:
dathan seems to be doing a great job but he has 3 Ncaa champion talent runners on his team (klecker, monson , how're) Tinman has one right ? Are the other guys even scorers at Ncaas?
As pointed out above:
Coleman- 2nd in steeple
Templeton- 5th in XC
Griffith-3rd in 1500
Barraza- a bad jump away from 1st
Sidney- D2 NCAA champ a bunch of times
They have more talent than you think they do. Equal to just about every team not sponsored by Nike.
The comparison was to On . And most of the non Nike groups aren't sending anyone to Worlds except w their NCaa champ.caliber talents.
Tinman has Hunter and a bunch of guys who couldn't get contracts elsewhere it looks like. The steeple is a weak event at NCAAs and sneaking a 3rd or 5th at Ncaas doesnt mean youre a world beater. Sounds like Tinman himself was without a contract which is crazy .
Jerry has done a great job w some of his non ncaa champ runners but he has them training w Ncaa champs .
Zante wrote:
rojo wrote:
Quick article here:
https://www.letsrun.com/news/2021/04/tom-tinman-schwartz-is-no-longer-coaching-drew-hunter-and-the-tinman-elite/PS. We know some threads were started on this in the last few days. We deleted them while we worked on getting comments from the parties involved.
Not for nothing but I think this is the best move for both parties.
I think for Tinman himself, he clearly works better and has better success with younger athletes, particularly talented ones, in much smaller numbers. I had a feeling that the added strain of coaching scores of athletes with different situations was wearing on him a little -- see the fizzling out of the Tinman Track Club as an example.
For the athletes I think it's clear that all of them have potential to at least be competitive on the national level (international in some cases). I don't think Tinman's training gets the job done for taking that next leap past college or club-level training.
Anyway wishing both parties the best.
One thing I'm unsure of about coaching distance running is how much time commitment it might require to make one athlete great or world-class. In some ways, you can be almost like a general practitioner doctor and just see a guy's fitness numbers and metrics, training schedule, progression of times and just alter as needed. Outside of cross-country It's not as much of a team sport so you don't actually have to get anyone working together.
I've seen high school and DIII colleges in action and they're job largely involves discerning who's talented and not talented and then putting the talented ones into a more rigorous training program and plotting out which ones to put in which races. However, at the pro level, you're generally not doing a "team" (it's not like Tinman's elite is going up against another group and scoring) and the person has developed by the time they're coming to you
Juice Springsteen wrote:
a big portion of the board got what it wanted here
I don't think too many posters on this board wanted to see Drew being coached by his parents again. Has any pro runner ever had success being coached by their mom?
any truth here wrote:
I don't buy the "drew hunter just isn't that talented" excuse. His form sucks....but what did Tinman do to fix it? Nothing. Form can be fixed. And Tinman's training was nowhere near enough to take Hunter to the next level.
I always thought Hunter’s crappy form would limit his upside.
rojo wrote:
But when I first heard of this last week, I said to Jonathan, "Please name one athlete other than Mo Farah who has run way better after switching coaches mid-career."
Shalane Flanagan from Cook to Schumacher. Jenny Simpson from Benson back to Wetmore. Shannon Rowbury won a medal with Cook but ran all her lifetime bests after she moved to NOP.
Somewhere in Oregon wrote:
Juice Springsteen wrote:
a big portion of the board got what it wanted here
I don't think too many posters on this board wanted to see Drew being coached by his parents again. Has any pro runner ever had success being coached by their mom?
Do you accept dads? See Coe.
BuckleUp wrote:
Somewhere in Oregon wrote:
Juice Springsteen wrote:
a big portion of the board got what it wanted here
I don't think too many posters on this board wanted to see Drew being coached by his parents again. Has any pro runner ever had success being coached by their mom?
Do you accept dads? Seb Coe.