Let's Get DEEP: What Happens After DEATH?

You don't get it. Sure, you "choose your beliefs freely". But you don't have any choice over what seems like the best choice for the beliefs you choose. Your character just turned out a certain way. Most of us humans turn out a fairly similar way, in a broad sense; sure we could "choose" to go the Jeffrey Dahmer route in life, I guess, but it just doesn't appeal to us at all. We're like, eww, why would I want to do that? We didn't choose to find that direction in life unappealing; it just is, to the vast majority of us. And presumably Jeffrey Dahmer didn't "choose" to want to kill people and chop them up or whatever. He didn't weigh the options and conclude that there was more upside to murder and cannibalism in his worldview. That's just the way he was.

Roof Inspector Gadget:

Let's suppose you're right. Then there's no such thing as decisions really. No love, no morality.

Either we make decisions or we don't. If we are purely physical beings then we are at the mercy of the physical laws and randomness (through molecular/atomic/subatomic "motion" and quantum mechanics) and we can't make decisions. That IS an option, I guess, but it's pretty bleak, isn't it? Without decisions we just do stuff. We're not really more than moving rocks. So then we couldn't really judge right and wrong, if there even is such a thing. Tough pill to swallow. Do you really believe all that?

I also think that if we were just physical beings there would be a lot MORE randomness to our life--like when you get muscle twitches and things like that. Most of life would feel that way if we're just at the mercy of the randomness of molecular motion and the (seemingly) truly random results of quantum mechanics.

Roof Inspector Gadget wrote:

Jeffrey Dahmer

I like the Jeffrey Dahmer movie. I find the character very relatable.

Morality is a human (/animal) construct. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t have a valid purpose. Certainly we make decisions on some level (the level it’s both healthiest and nearly inevitable to operate on), but I believe in determinism and that everything that happens is effectively the ONLY way it could happen, based on initial conditions.

The realities of life as I seem them are bleak and tough pills to swallow—that’s just humans (this assembly of matter) becoming too smart for their own good. It doesn’t mean you can’t find “spiritual” significance and beauty in the universe and the human experience, without altogether deceiving yourself about what we’re fated for.

Physics Teacher: as I'm sure you're aware (as a physics teacher I'm presuming), whether or not something is bleak doesn't affect whether or not it is true. Nature and existence are the way they are, which is neither positive nor negative. The way I see it, humans and any other sentient beings that might exist are just a strange little offshoot in the highly interesting, but ultimately mindless, unfolding of the consequences of the Big Bang.

Related question, for those of you who believe that when we die, we are judged by God based on our performance during our time on Earth, and sentenced to either Heaven or Hell for eternity: do you realize how long eternity is? Seriously! If I go to hell for thinking impure thoughts (or even for murder, for that matter) during my several decades as a living being - okay, I get the idea of punishment for doing something wrong. I'm all for it, most of the time. But what about being burned in the fiery pits of Hell for 10^1000 years, all for some supposed crimes (that I probably had little if any control over, in the big picture) during my time on Earth. And 10^1000 years is just the beginning! Doesn't it seem like overkill, kind of? A merciful God?

That's nice, Copper. I studied a lot of theology and religions and this one is new in its specifics. I do believe we carry on in and as spirit, but as we all know I and all others have no evidence. I like your version as well as many.

John Wesley Harding wrote:

Not much lol

Good to see a lot of Fairly rational educated responses! Whenever I try to discuss religion Superstition or death threads always get deleted

The physicist Sean Carroll has had some good YouTube debates and lectures. Check out freedom from religion Sean Carroll acceptance lecture

Pretty clear that we are our bodies and brain. Just look at anyone who has had a brain injury, stroke, and you will see that if you damage the nervous system you damage the corresponding abilities

Often times the whole personality has changed in these situations

Anyway if you're raised with a lot of magical beliefs it can be tough to accept but pretty obvious. We decompose and dead men tell no Tales

There are survival advantages to magical thinking and Superstition and evolutionary reasons why we have those Tendencies

But if you look at what the best schools have to say it's pretty clear the idea of a soul or spirit is very outdated and has no reliable evidence to back it up

We have an incredibly Advanced understanding of biology and physics. If there is any magical energies where are they stored and how do they communicate with the brain , and how come we can't detect them?

We have mountains of evidence for how biology and physics works and zero reliable evidence of any magical communication of souls or Spirits with our biology, and no evidence of how this would be stored after death

I don't think lightning is caused by Thor, I don't think Santa brings presents on Christmas, I don't think it's raining outside cuz God is sad , and I don't think we go to any magical place after death!

On Randomness and determinism:

Life and evolution are certainly not random. Life being the outcome of evolutionary processes is not random at all

Life is by its very nature is built on replicating the patterns that are successful. And through the constant interplay of selective pressures it leads to the development of complexity and select adaptations

Also there's no evidence that physics at its fundamental level is deterministic

Physical Systems at certain scales and time frames certainly show the Hallmarks of a large degree of deterministic behavior but that doesn't mean that they are completely deterministic or that determinism is an absolute principle

Quantum physics is probabilistic and shows the impossibility of complete determinism

But that doesn't mean it's random. Simply probabilistic.

Like for example we know the fate of the Sun and can predict the general happenings over the next several billion years. But we certainly cannot predict solar flares or anything like that

Same thing with the weather. There are General patterns but we cannot predict it with absolute certainty and never will be able to

Anyway this is what we have learned from Chaos Theory, the uncertainty principle, the incompleteness theorem , and the measurement effect

The very Act of trying to measure any physical system will have some effect on initial conditions that cannot be known beforehand and therefore makes absolute predictions impossible

The best we can do is give predictions within a margin of error. Not due to any limitation on technology but due to the fundamental nature of the universe itself. And the fundamental nature of attempting to model and predict

Sympathy for the Devil. wrote:

Dz200 wrote:

We meet God right after and we are judged on whether we believed in His word or not

Why would God be so mean? Isn't he the dude who created us?

I never understood the concept of Genesis and the Adam & Eve paradox. So, God creates these two perfect humans who won't experience evil, illness, injury, pain, death, etc. Then along comes the Devil that gives them the knowledge of God where they experience evil and other undesirable thoughts. Along comes God who is pissed off at Satan, but instead of destroying Satan and Adam & Eve, and staring over with two brand new humans, He allows them to live and procreate leading to this horrible world we live in.

Think of all the death & destruction that's plagued humans for thousands of years. Think of the horrific world wars of the 20th century. Think of all the hatred & evil that's perpetuated every single day of this world's events. Humans want hate & kill, and destroy just about anything we come in contact in. And the pain & despair so many humans suffer each & everyday is so disheartening!

If God had the power to create something as colossal as the universe, then he surely could have destroyed Satan and Adam & Eve, and started over fresh with two new humans and this time no Satan to screw things up.

John and Roof:

Yes, I very much agree that something being bleak doesn’t change whether or not it’s true. But I don’t find many determinists to really believe the ramifications of what the say they believe. If the initial conditions, the temperature of the day, the light hitting your retinas and true randomness are the ultimate cause for what you do it doesn’t make much sense to fight for or against some social cause. Even if you can sway people to your side, your (and everyone else’s) mental faculties are flawed and so are theirs. If we can only do what we do we are no more likely “right” than anyone else.

Punch a determinist in the face for no reason and they won’t likely say, “Man, did I ever hit the bad jackpot in the randomness of the universe!”

I will say this, though. While I disagree with your viewpoint, I think it’s actually GOOD that you believe something you may not particularly like (or maybe you like that it’s bleak?) I think far too many of us only believe things we WANT to be true. I’ve seen that more and more as I get older. It’s true if my students, of famous scientists (Einstein and quantum mechanics, e.g.), and very much in the political situation in America. And I’ll throw in many people who believe things similar to what I believe but more because it’s convenient than because they’ve considered whether it was true. (I believe faith is only good when it is based on evidence. Blind faith is a very scary thing.)

But whether I believe in something else really isn’t of much consequence, necessarily. I really think that science shows that all if we are only physical beings our lives are meaningless and morality—“helpful” or not—means nothing.

Someone mentioned the Bug Bang too. How did that happen? Yes I know we’ve learned a lot, and will learn more. (It is kinda strange, though—wouldn’t it be the biggest black hole ever?) More than that, though, is how did it come about? Was the Big Bang caused by natural processes or not?

The Earth is a schoolhouse for human beings which have a great purpose, to become true children of God. This can only be accomplished out of our completely free will decision to become like him. A completely free will allows us to act against his ways in the most deeply bad ways, such as war, and that freedom also allows us to reach the highest height we are destined for if we so choose.

The divine wisdom in God did want to destroy Adam and Eve and the entire Earth because of their sin, but the divine love in him decided that he will send a savior, himself embodied in the flesh of a human man, who would take their sin and the sins of all their children onto him for all ages to remedy their apostasy.

Physics Teacher wrote:

Someone mentioned the Bug Bang too. How did that happen?

How does something "happen" when it is presumed to predate the existence of time for things to happen in?

No, the Big Bang, and the Bug Bang, are inventions of the demons which pass from parent to child at the parent's death. Their proponents were mostly people whose parents were dead and had already passed the demons to them. The theories are meant to confuse people so they don't realize what the demons are up to.

Inheritance is another way the demons hold on to power. They make sure that all their wealth, tax free, passes immediately to their new host body after the old one dies. What other logical reason would a frail 90 year old in a nursing home want to cling to millions of dollars, and not let their children have it until the bitter end?

The truth is inescapable: everyone with dead parents is demon-possessed. All the human bodies die, and the demons live forever hopping from parent body to child body.

For those who truly believe and profess that Jesus Christ is their Lord and Savior, they will be in heaven.

stan the corgi wrote:

For those who truly believe and profess that Jesus Christ is their Lord and Savior, they will be in heaven.

These same so called Christians of our age consented to their own Savior being crucified for they did not recognize him once.

H_Emer_Troy wrote:

stan the corgi wrote:

For those who truly believe and profess that Jesus Christ is their Lord and Savior, they will be in heaven.

These same so called Christians of our age consented to their own Savior being crucified for they did not recognize him once.

Your profession means nothing. The message poured out from on high these 16 years. All of you put the Christ in last place before your corrupt jobs sports and pathetic relationships and romances

I have revealed great knowledge of the industries and what works and manners to practice. Those who seek to understand it and can repeat it will be saved. Those who have entered into marriage and produced children thereby are also consecrated. Your pastors never speak nor have spoken on these things. Agrateabsolve in the Name of the Father the Son and the Holy Ghost

Also surprised and glad to see this thread remaining alive. i think because it has remained for the most part very civil and clean. Here's a paraphrase of something Blaise Pascal said in the 1600's "I know not who sent me into the world, nor what the world is, nor what I myself am. I am terribly ignorant of everything. As I know not whence I come, so I know not whither I go. I only know that on leaving this world I fall forever into nothingness or into the hands of a wrathful God, without knowing to which of these two states I shall be everlastingly consigned. From all this I conclude that i aught to spend every day of my life WITHOUT seeking to know my fate. I might perhaps be able to find a solution to my doubts; but I cannot be bothered to so, I will not take one step towards its discovery." I am encouraged that many posting here are at least contemplating mans predicament. I would warn the arrogant and cocky amongst us of God's words in the book of Job ch 38:1 -2 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said: Who is this who darkens My counsel by words without knowledge?

John Lennox the Cambridge physicist is an excellent teacher to checkout for those interested.

Sham 69 wrote:

?

I love you sham 69. Don’t let the haters get to you.

Nothing happens though. Your body just rots away and you’re forgotten about.

Since Adam and Eve were mentioned, who was the mother of Cain's children?