Ellen Page is now Elliot Page?

As an older generation straight male I find the issues around transgender aren't easy to get my head around. As I've indicated in this thread, it seems to me the terms of self-description some trans will use can be contradictory and ultimately kind of meaningless - except perhaps to them. Why use conventional or "binary" terms to describe your gender affiliation if you are also making it plain you are anything but conventional or binary? You are either on the team or you aren't - you can't really be both.

I quite accept that some people will believe they are the gender that is the opposite of their biological sex; I don't argue with that. But I don't see that identifying with what you wish to be abolishes what you also are.

I cannot see, for example, how a female who now says she is male can know what it is actually like to be male, in the way that someone who is biologically male and lived socially and culturally as a male would know. I might identify with another race or culture (that I have never lived in), does that enable me to say I am that which I identify with? Why is gender any different? It is similarly biologically and culturally defined.

I see trans as being trans - they are different because of that - and that's fine. But to be trans also says to me that you don't become male or female in exactly the same way we see cisgender are male or female. That's what "trans" means to me. Biology is a powerful influence upon who we are; it doesn't simply disappear because we wish it otherwise. In a positive sense it may mean that to be trans is to be special through being different, and not just like the rest of us "binary" and "cisgender" types. But that difference exists, even for those who might say otherwise.

Dwightarm wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

You're not getting it. Queer males are into guys - that's why they have always been called queer. For a guy to be into females is to be straight or "hetero". But then I don't see that someone who has lived as a female, biologically and socially, really knows what it is to be male; it is an identity that is imagined rather than experienced.

As an actual queer male who is actually into gays, let me say: NO. Being a queer male does not necessarily mean you are into guys. Being queer is not just about orientation, it can also be about gender or being non-binary.

It is a very inclusive term that encompasses a lot of different kinds of people.

I can explain it to you but I can’t understand it for you.

Do you know any queer males who aren't into guys? If so, what are they in to? Women?

Fair reply I think. I don't think many people get their head around it easy, including people who are trans. It's complicated stuff, and it's fine to be confused, find it difficult etc. It's those others who think it's simple and binary who seem to have the biggest issues.

However, you say "how a female who now says she is male". Afaik Elliot has never said he is male. The pronoun doesn't imply one specific state. Are we talking male sex, male gender, what ? There is obviously an implied bias in wanting to use a certain pronoun, but that doesn't suddenly make the "thing" we are talking about suddenly binary. Don't mistake the finger pointing to the moon for the moon, as the saying goes. Don't get hung up on labels. Sure, we need labels to discuss things, but behind that, we must understand that those labels mean different things to different people as we've seen here.

The reason you need elements of binary (like he/she), is because there are times we are all forced into it in society. Like your passport for example. If you notice, one of the terms Elliot wants to be used as is "they". In the ideal world we would have a spectrum language, that's much more flexible.

"I cannot see, for example, how a female who now says she is male can know what it is actually like to be male, in the way that someone who is biologically male and lived socially and culturally as a male would know."

How do you know what it's like to be male or female other than your own experience ? Does my being male make me understand what it is to be male in the same way as that big bloke round the corner who goes around beating up his wife, or that skinny kid round the corner who gets beat up every day ? What does this actually mean ? Who is this "generic" male you are refering to ?

"But to be trans also says to me that you don't become male or female in exactly the same way we see cisgender are male or female."

Sure, I think you're right here. But again, I'm not the same male as that male around the corner. What's the point being made really ? What's the tangible difference to you, out of interest ?

"In a positive sense it may mean that to be trans is to be special through being different, and not just like the rest of us "binary" and "cisgender" types. But that difference exists, even for those who might say otherwise."

I think I almost agree, but what are you bracketing all us "binary" types about ? Is it just because we have a dick or not, or what ? The binariness (I don't think that can even exist as a word :D) is just an illusion, other than a penis.

Interesting fact for the day. Every single one of us started out life as a female.

Armstronglivs wrote: Do you know any queer males who aren't into guys? If so, what are they in to? Women?

What about if you're bisexual ? Can you not be queer then ?

Well...... wrote:

How do you know what it's like to be male or female other than your own experience ? Does my being male make me understand what it is to be male in the same way as that big bloke round the corner who goes around beating up his wife, or that skinny kid round the corner who gets beat up every day ? What does this actually mean ? Who is this "generic" male you are refering to ?

Armstronglivs wrote: Do you know any queer males who aren't into guys? If so, what are they in to? Women?

Well...... wrote:

What about if you're bisexual ? Can you not be queer then ?

Exactly what this person said. You can be bisexual or pansexual and be queer. You can be a trans male who is into women and be queer. It is an umbrella term.

And cisgender men's experiences are as varied within that group as cisgender and transgender men are. Same for cisgender women and transgender women. Sure there are (obvious) differences between the 2; but within that same group of cisgender women, there are huge huge differences.

Well...... wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote: Do you know any queer males who aren't into guys? If so, what are they in to? Women?

What about if you're bisexual ? Can you not be queer then ?

Of course - that goes without saying. But a man who isn't into guys is definitely not queer.

An "umbrella term"? An "umbrella" for what - anything you choose it to mean?

Armstronglivs wrote:

An "umbrella term"? An "umbrella" for what - anything you choose it to mean?

At this point I can see you don't actually care to learn, you're just being a brat.

So if you have any further questions, there's always Google.

Dwightarm wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

An "umbrella term"? An "umbrella" for what - anything you choose it to mean?

At this point I can see you don't actually care to learn, you're just being a brat.

So if you have any further questions, there's always Google.

Ah, Google - the authority on all things.

Actually my questions are quite serious. But answering them apparently poses some difficulty for you.

Well...... wrote:

However, you say "how a female who now says she is male". Afaik Elliot has never said he is male. The pronoun doesn't imply one specific state.

Actually, it does. "He" refers to a male - not a female, or anything else for that matter. Why would Elliot choose that pronoun except to say he is now male? Why change his name from Ellen to Elliot, except to make the same point? Ironically, while he says he is "non-binary" he is choosing a typically binary gender pronoun term (as well as his name) to identify himself.

How do you know what it's like to be male or female other than your own experience ? [/quote]

That's kind of the point. To be male is to not have the experience of being female - and vice versa. Regardless that some say that it is "all in the mind" it is also biologically determined - and the differences are not insignificant.

I dont make the claim that I know what it is like to be another man - I am not saying that my maleness enables me to identify with all his life experiences - and people are different. But one thing as males we share is our male biology and that biology exerts a profound influence over how we experience life. We don't share the same biology with females, so in respect of how their biology affects their lives I can't say that I know what it is like to be female.

If the differences between male and female are not significant it raises the question of why do trans identify with one or the other? Why not simply abolish gender, as it were, and say that it doesnt really exist beyond an attitude that one assumes, perhaps? But they don't say that - and neither do you.

It seems to me that the issue of gender identity has conflated the debate about gender stereotyping, but they aren't the same. You can be male or female on your own terms if you wish rather than those defined by society without having to choose to be the opposite gender to escape that stereotyping. That isn't to say that some genuinely feel they are the opposite of their biologically determined gender. But it is that which makes them different, and not simply the same as the mainstream by their adoption of some pronouns.

Interesting fact for the day. Every single one of us started out life as a female. [/quote]

Another interesting fact is that 50% of us become male. Personally, I am thankful for that.

Armstronglivs wrote:

Well...... wrote:

However, you say "how a female who now says she is male". Afaik Elliot has never said he is male. The pronoun doesn't imply one specific state.

Actually, it does. "He" refers to a male - not a female, or anything else for that matter. Why would Elliot choose that pronoun except to say he is now male? Why change his name from Ellen to Elliot, except to make the same point? Ironically, while he says he is "non-binary" he is choosing a typically binary gender pronoun term (as well as his name) to identify himself.

How do you know what it's like to be male or female other than your own experience ?

That's kind of the point. To be male is to not have the experience of being female - and vice versa. Regardless that some say that it is "all in the mind" it is also biologically determined - and the differences are not insignificant.

I dont make the claim that I know what it is like to be another man - I am not saying that my maleness enables me to identify with all his life experiences - and people are different. But one thing as males we share is our male biology and that biology exerts a profound influence over how we experience life. We don't share the same biology with females, so in respect of how their biology affects their lives I can't say that I know what it is like to be female.

If the differences between male and female are not significant it raises the question of why do trans identify with one or the other? Why not simply abolish gender, as it were, and say that it doesnt really exist beyond an attitude that one assumes, perhaps? But they don't say that - and neither do you.

It seems to me that the issue of gender identity has conflated the debate about gender stereotyping, but they aren't the same. You can be male or female on your own terms if you wish rather than those defined by society without having to choose to be the opposite gender to escape that stereotyping. That isn't to say that some genuinely feel they are the opposite of their biologically determined gender. But it is that which makes them different, and not simply the same as the mainstream by their adoption of some pronouns.

Interesting fact for the day. Every single one of us started out life as a female. [/quote]

Another interesting fact is that 50% of us become male. Personally, I am thankful for that.[/quote]

>>Actually, it does. "He" refers to a male - not a female, or anything else for that matter. Why would Elliot choose that pronoun except to say he is now male? Why change his name from Ellen to Elliot, except to make the same point? Ironically, while he says he is "non-binary" he is choosing a typically binary gender pronoun term (as well as his name) to identify himself.

No "he" isn't necessarily doing that (it is possible also he is, but it's unclear). He wants people to use "they/he"....why does he want folk to use "they" ? There are times you have no choice but to make a binary choice unfortunately (eg passport), and times in conversations it's difficult. The point of using "they" is specifically saying that they don't want to be defined by that. But hey, if it comes to that point, they'd rather you use "he" than "she" because they feel more male than female.

>>That's kind of the point. To be male is to not have the experience of being female

Is it ? Who says so ? What part of the experience of being female ? As I mentioned, we were all female once. There's plenty of cases in animals where they have changed from female to male. Are they not male any more ? These would disagree...

>>>But one thing as males we share is our male biology and that biology exerts a profound influence over how we experience life. We don't share the same biology with females, so in respect of how their biology affects their lives I can't say that I know what it is like to be female.

Sure, I agree here. I can never know what it's like to have a womb or have kids. Some other women don't though. Are they less of a woman ?

>>>If the differences between male and female are not significant it raises the question of why do trans identify with one or the other? Why not simply abolish gender, as it were, and say that it doesnt really exist beyond an attitude that one assumes, perhaps? But they don't say that - and neither do you.

Actually, I think you may be surprised here. I think quite a few would say it doesn't really exist (as we currently tend to define it here), but there are different qualities around that area. Some smaller cultures have 5 genders for example. Try existing in society as genderless even in discussion and you'll realise how difficult that actually is. But again, I think this is somewhat implied by Elliot wanting folk to use the word "they", and not solely "he". I may be wrong though.

>>>You can be male or female on your own terms if you wish rather than those defined by society without having to choose to be the opposite gender to escape that stereotyping.

I'm not quite sure what this means. I.e if I walk around and everyone calls me "she", is that on my own terms ?

By the way, I appreciate the discussion, I'm somewhat of an argumentative person at times, but appreciate decent replies etc, and find this who area fascinating.

Apologies, looks like quoting of the first bit messed up. My hobbyposter mistake ;).

I thought you might have responded to this point earlier.

"I cannot see, for example, how a female who now says she is male can know what it is actually like to be male, in the way that someone who is biologically male and lived socially and culturally as a male would know. I might identify with another race or culture (that I have never lived amongst), does that enable me to say I am of that race or culture which I identify with? Why is gender any different? It is similarly biologically and culturally defined."

Armstronglivs wrote:

I thought you might have responded to this point earlier.

"I cannot see, for example, how a female who now says she is male can know what it is actually like to be male, in the way that someone who is biologically male and lived socially and culturally as a male would know. I might identify with another race or culture (that I have never lived amongst), does that enable me to say I am of that race or culture which I identify with? Why is gender any different? It is similarly biologically and culturally defined."

I did :D, get with the program, this is what I said...

"How do you know what it's like to be male or female other than your own experience ? Does my being male make me understand what it is to be male in the same way as that big bloke round the corner who goes around beating up his wife, or that skinny kid round the corner who gets beat up every day ? What does this actually mean ? Who is this "generic" male you are refering to ?"

You duck - again - the point I raised that the argument used to justify gender identity is not accepted for forming a racial or cultural identity, when these, too, are also subject to genetic, biological and cultural criteria in the way gender is. The gender identity argument cannot be reconciled with the argument applied to racial or cultural identity. I may claim to be a woman if I am a biological man, but I cannot claim to be black if I am white, or a Sioux Indian if I am a WASP from LA - no matter how much I feel that I am. Why not? The answer appears to be that it is all about politics.

Your main point also misses the mark entirely; understanding sex and gender does not require that I or anyone else knows what it is like to be any other person on the basis of their individual personality or subjective life experiences. But if sexual biological features exist - and they do - then those are features that males and females have in common with others of the same sex. Those biological features help define the lives we lead and the experiences we have. Your argument can only stand if these biological differences don't actually exist; that none of it is biological and it only "exists in the mind" - as some say it does. In that case gender is indistinguishable from fantasy and claiming a gender identity is claiming that which isn't real - it is a convenient invention at best. I don't see trans or anyone else making that argument.

Just Another LRC Idiot wrote:

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/26/entertainment/elliot-page-divorce-emma-portner-trnd/index.html

I saw that. Perhaps Portner preferred Ellen over Elliot.

Dwight actually said into gays, not guys. Not sure if that was a typo. Or if it even matters. I guess that could be a thing.

Not sure I follow, although I've lost some of the track of what the actual "argument" is now, I'll try and have a bash.

>>>the point I raised that the argument used to justify gender identity is not accepted for forming a racial or cultural identity, when these, too, are also subject to genetic, biological and cultural criteria in the way gender is.

I'm not sure I'm intending to reconcile any gender identity with racial identity ? I could certainly argue that they are biological, and not fixed, and that we choose labels and it's not a binary thing, but mixed, but I'm not quite sure what the point is here. I feel like your point is sort of a self sulfilling mislabelled prophecy (by society). I.e "I cannot claim to be black if I am white". The problem here is a decision it's binary, when it isn't firstly. No one is actually black or white (although because you've already adjudicated that you are white, you can't be black, it's kind of meaningless). We've chosen these labels, they don't actually match the reality in precision. Many if not most people are qualities of blackness, have mixed heritage etc. But I'm not saying this is "the same" as being transgender, although there are some similar issues (trying to apply a binary labelling scheme).

I've never said gender doesn't have a biological basis, and I don't really understand where you get that from. All the time on these forums, I've repeated that it has, that's erm my main point. I think you're confusing the context of my reply about maleness, to this..." cannot see, for example, how a female who now says she is male can know what it is actually like to be male". My point really is that it's irrelevant (i.e the experience doesn't dictate the gender). I.e a male to female person, may have grown up from a very early age (eg 2 yrs old) knowing (in a loose sense at that age) that her sex isn't matching her gender. She didn't have to know what it was like to be a "woman" to figure this one out. Just as you didn't have to live life as a man to know you were one (talking gender). Not sure if that's clearer.