El Guerrouj 2k WR - Incredible 3:49 Mile pace

Armstronglivs wrote:

The best example I've seen yet of the need for a brain surgeon. But you are just a low-grade troll trying to be clever. Weak troll and merely dumb.

The proverbial pot calling the kettle black.

Armstronglivs wrote:

how does that work? wrote:

Yes, I agree. So are they actually using the same amount of oxygen?

No, you moron. Oxygen doesn't go directly from the lungs to the muscles. It has to be carried by the red blood cells and the athlete with a higher RBC transports more to the muscles than those with fewer red blood cells.

You are on the wrong thread. The Covid denial/anti-vaxxer/election fraud thread is over there.

I thought that oxygen had to be extracted from the air we breathe? I thought this happened in the lungs? In the Alveoli?

How does the extra oxygen of a doped runner get from the atmosphere to the Alveoli to the red blood cells without breathing more air?

Armstronglivs wrote:

how does that work? wrote:

So how does that work? If the doped runner is using more oxygen how does he not go into oxygen debt? Isn't he producing more CO2 than the non doped runner?

You go in to oxygen debt when you run out of oxygen, which the fitter or doped athlete doesn't do - or do as soon. I've contacted the Guiness Book of Records and told them I have found a record example here for the world's dumbest dude.

How do you run out of oxygen? If you are breathing hard, you must be taking in lots of oxygen? Maybe not at 20,000 feet. People who have climbed that high without a breathing mask and oxygen cylinders all say the same thing:

"It was the hardest thing I have ever done in my life"

But El Gerrouj ran his fastest races as low altitude. So did I. Lack of oxygen wasn't my problem. Lack of training wasn't either. Must be something else? Would I have run faster on EPO? If so, how much?

Armstronglivs wrote:

how does that work? wrote:

Do tell us how that extra oxygen is extracted from the atmosphere by having more red blood cells without breathing in more oxygen?

How do you extract more oxygen breathing less oxygen?

The amount of oxygen you breath in doesn't determine what reaches your muscles. The red blood cells do that and the greater number means more oxygen from each breath reaches the muscles. And the muscles will only use what they need, and if they are getting enough for the effort expended you don't have to breath harder to try to extract more oxygen from the air. I suggest you contact your grade school and re- enroll.

How does the amount of oxygen I breathe in not determine what reaches my muscles?

You say the red blood cells do that, but how do they pick up more oxygen without breathing more oxygen? Where does the extra oxygen attached to the extra blood cells come from if it doesn't come from extra air from extra breathing?

There's something you're not telling me here. Maybe someone with more knowledge can explain?

Tinman and Magness don't post here because they hate these kind of questions, so I thought maybe you could explain? Maybe not? Maybe Luv2run? Who is Luv2run anyway? I see that name a lot in old posts.

Armstronglivs wrote:

how does that work? wrote:

Hips don't lie. But hip surgeons? Surely you were much faster than him and he didn't understand why?

The best example I've seen yet of the need for a brain surgeon. But you are just a low-grade troll trying to be clever. Weak troll and merely dumb.

I'm just asking how the best runners use more oxygen without breathing more air? That's not trolling. I think it's a really important question.

We are agreed that they don't hyperventilate - go into oxygen debt, whatever you want to call it. So some progress has been made.

how does that work? wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

No, you moron. Oxygen doesn't go directly from the lungs to the muscles. It has to be carried by the red blood cells and the athlete with a higher RBC transports more to the muscles than those with fewer red blood cells.

You are on the wrong thread. The Covid denial/anti-vaxxer/election fraud thread is over there.

I thought that oxygen had to be extracted from the air we breathe? I thought this happened in the lungs? In the Alveoli?

How does the extra oxygen of a doped runner get from the atmosphere to the Alveoli to the red blood cells without breathing more air?

0/10.

Apart from trolling you are seriously dense - as well as scientifically illiterate.

The amount of oxygen that makes it from the lungs to the muscles depends upon the red blood cells. The higher the count the more oxygen from a given intake of air. Therefore from each breath a higher RBC allows for more oxygen to be transported to the muscles than would be the case in a person with a lower RBC (an anemic or less fit or undoped person). The only way they can obtain more oxygen is by breathing more - but they also risk going into oxygen debt sooner, which is when they have run out of cells to transport the oxygen.

However, because the oxygen flow to your brain has clearly been impeded I don't expect you to grasp any of this. And you are clearly too lazy to get off your backside and read up on the topic, but require spoon feeding like a baby.

Unlike you, I don't base my views on a single source.

But what is apparent here is despite your claims about doping and blood doping in particular you don't know how it works. You also don't properly understand how altitude-training works (despite your claims that it is more effective than blood doping) - because it enhances endurance in a similar although lesser fashion to blood doping but by a different means. Indeed, EPO and blood doping exploit the same physiological processes that are enhanced by training, which includes improving the ability of the body to transport oxygen to the muscles, as well as how the muscles use that oxygen. The principle behind EPO and blood doping (and altitude training) is quite simple; it is to improve endurance by increasing the ability of the body to transport oxygen to the muscles, through increasing (among other things) the quantity of red blood cells. It can be done naturally, through training, or alternatively by injection, which artificially increases the RBC beyond the ability of the body to naturally produce - and is why it is banned.

The physiological equation is quite simple: for any given intake of air to the lungs a higher RBC allows more oxygen to be transported to the muscles. The muscles will only use as much oxygen as they need, which will depend on the degree of exertion that is required. That is why a supremely fit or doped athlete will appear to perform effortlessly at a high level and without obviously gasping for air. They still have plenty of oxygen in the blood stream without needing to increase their intake of air and haven't gone into oxygen debt.

But when I read up on the subject, the literature says that anemic people extract more:

"The blood hemoglobin concentration is determinant of oxygen delivery. In anemic patients, oxygen delivery decreases and oxygen extraction is increased. This leads to decreased venous hemoglobin saturation and a lower tissue oxygen saturation."

So that's why I need to ask these questions. I read somewhere that El Gerrouj liked his cousin cousin very much and ate huge platefulls. I doubt if he was anemic he probably had normal haemoglobin counts like me. But you are sure he must have needed extra red blood cells to run a little bit faster than the rest.

So I was asking you why and how that works but you seem a little confused?

Yes -- there are many sources of misinformation, rumors, and conspiracies.

Not sure how you arrive at "single source", as I have already shown you three separate sources that help form my views. Compare that to your zero. I've already given you more than a single source, and you have given me less than a single source. Maybe you are right to say your views are not based on any single source.

I have made no claims about doping, blood doping, or altitude training here, so I'm not sure what is apparent to you. If you see things apparent here which are not here, how can I rely on you to correctly recount what you've read?

I'm not sure that I've ever claimed altitude training was "more" effective than blood doping.

Not sure any of these topics are ripe for discussion here until we have established if El G doped, blood doped, altitude trained, possessed increased RBCs, transported more oxygen to the muscles, and/or breathed less.

So I was asking you why and how that works but you seem a little confused?[/quote]

The confusion is all yours.

So by your "reasoning" top athletes should be anaemic - and there would be no advantage in adding to the RBC through blood doping and EPO - or even doing altitude-training. Your stupidity has just surpassed itself.

You should learn a little about human biology and come back later.

Just one of many articles and studies out there.

https://sportsscientists.com/2007/11/the-effect-of-epo-on-performance/

"And the main finding was that EPO use improved time to exhaustion by an enormous 54% within 4 weeks!"

"This study clearly shows that EPO works. I’d extend that to say that any practice that increases the body’s ability to carry O2 will work – so the same goes for blood doping. If they work, and work by the sort of margins we seem to be talking here – tens of percent, then can one gifted, unique individual dominate the sport? I think not."

I tell you what, instead of asking your stupid disingenuous questions that reinforce your ignorance of basic human physiology, why don't you tell us what you actually know about how EPO and blood doping works?

Did you understand my post? How will anything I do help you establish if El G doped, blood doped, altitude trained, possessed increased RBCs, transported more oxygen to the muscles, and/or breathed less?

Armstronglivs wrote:

Just one of many articles and studies out there.

"And the main finding was that EPO use improved time to exhaustion by an enormous 54% within 4 weeks!"

"This study clearly shows that EPO works. I’d extend that to say that any practice that increases the body’s ability to carry O2 will work – so the same goes for blood doping. If they work, and work by the sort of margins we seem to be talking here – tens of percent, then can one gifted, unique individual dominate the sport? I think not."

I've read that one. I don't see how it fits in this thread though.

Did you forget the claim you were supposed to back up? You were talking about breathing, not improving peak power and time to exhaustion for amateur cyclists on stationary bicycles.

We weren't talking at all about "EPO works" -- maybe you posted that in the wrong thread.

I never expressed doubts that EPO works for amateur cyclists in an unknown state of fitness.

But since you bring it up, here is what expert Ross tells us:

"Another potential problem with the study is the extrapolation of the data to the elite. These subjects were fit, but clearly not elite. It’s likely that in the elite, the improvement would be smaller. ... if you could help an elite cyclist improve his average power output by only 5%, that would represent a major step forward. Whether or not EPO would do this is debatable, but …"

I agree with Ross:

- extrapolation of the data to elites can be a problem.

- it is debatable whether "EPO works" for elites.

Armstronglivs wrote:

So I was asking you why and how that works but you seem a little confused?

The confusion is all yours.

So by your "reasoning" top athletes should be anaemic - and there would be no advantage in adding to the RBC through blood doping and EPO - or even doing altitude-training. Your stupidity has just surpassed itself.[/quote]

Maybe you should read this again?:

"The blood hemoglobin concentration is determinant of oxygen delivery. In anemic patients, oxygen delivery decreases and oxygen extraction is increased. This leads to decreased venous hemoglobin saturation and a lower tissue oxygen saturation."

Armstronglivs wrote:

I tell you what, instead of asking your stupid disingenuous questions that reinforce your ignorance of basic human physiology, why don't you tell us what you actually know about how EPO and blood doping works?

EPO and Blood transfusion works for patients who need it in a medical emergency.

Why would athletes with a normal healthy blood count need more red blood cells than they can use?

rekrunner wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

You should learn a little about human biology and come back later.

Did you understand my post? How will anything I do help you establish if El G doped, blood doped, altitude trained, possessed increased RBCs, transported more oxygen to the muscles, and/or breathed less?

It won't help me, but it might help you understand better than you do.