Very true.
Very true.
FastTuohy wrote:
https://accounts.milesplit.com/live/24180-2020-lubbock-christian-university-high-school-cross-country-national-invite?ref=live-24180-widget&site=45This will be a high SR (my prediction)
I am changing my mind. Unless the Orem boys got a lot faster, this was a pretty fast course today.
Indoor? wrote:
GoodStart wrote:
It's going to be an amazing track season!!!
Is it maybe more realistic that Brown just is not a 9:39 runner at the moment? She in fact has never been a 9:39 runner in actual race. Yes she ran an amazing time trial, but perfectly paced time trials do in fact work pretty well for running fast times. But I think it's clear she's not in that kind of shape right now and will likely never run that fast in a race with actual competition.
You could be right, but I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned the altitude factor of Lubbock (around 3,000ft). This would have made it much easier for the high altitude Wyoming-based Thorvaldsen, compared to the Brown coming from low-altitude East Texas. Thorvaldsen had a big advantage here. I wouldn't be surprised if it was much closer if both were racing at sea level.
I was at the meet. Thorvaldson went out in 4:58. Brown was close behind. That is a very fast first mile at 3200' and with a first mile layout that isn't setup to be blazing fast. My best guess that if that was run on a track at same location/time, that is worth 4:50 - 4:52. She never let up her effort. Brynn Brown was probably shocked by the pace. Based on what I saw, Thorvaldson is probably one of the best runners ever at the HS level, not just this year. Brynn Brown is very good. She runs her region meets in the same town as this race. On a fast course with better pacing in the first mile, I can see Brynn running exceptionally fast. Only a few runners in HS history could have hung with Thorvaldson through 2.5 miles today.
astro wrote:
I remember going over this and I got all sorts of blowback. No one wanted to hear it. But that TT was not a valid result even ignoring the lack of controls and certification of the course. It was an assisted time . I thought at the time that getting to draft behind and be paced by runners from wire to wire was worth about 12-15 seconds. It was just basic physics.
I think you cant also underestimate the impact of being able to step on the inside line without penalty on every curve, every time, thats good for 5 - 10 seconds as well vs being in real race with a rail and have to run and pass in lane 2.
This is actually Brown's worst margin of victory over the other TX girl's in any race. I'm wondering if she's just getting slightly slower or everyone's faster--- or somehow Thor killed her mentally by crushing her as she did.
NOT to take anything away from Thor. I honestly thought she would win this race, but not by 27 seconds... Her time in comparison to Judson Greer at the XC Town USA meet made me realize she was probably faster than Brown. I just thought, with how dominate Brown was this season, that being pushed by Thor would make her run closer to her or at least an incredible time. Never would I have guessed Brown would lose THAT bad. Honestly, I wonder if Thor just simply crushed her mentally.
I think Brown will definitely run sub 9:50 for 2-miles in a meet this year. 9:39 for 3200m is still possible. She ran sub 10:00 early season last year with no competition, and I still think she has shown she is about the same or maybe even a little bit better than she was in XC last year (although we all know she got injured towards state-nationals =/).
Also, so much for Vanderkooi being overlooked, lol. #2 TX girl Sophie also beat her as well.
I think it was just a matter of trying to win and trying to stay with runner who was faster on the day. That is when a runner can overextend. The 2017 NXN is classic example.
Brown is already a top national runner and she had a great top 3 time at Brooks in 2019. She is a sub 10 2miler/3200m runner. Chances are a 9:39 is not happening in a real race, but given how much pacing help we have seen lately at official events I am beginning to wonder how we define it. So who knows.
Thorvaldson's SR was 168.05.
What about the girl from California who hasn’t raced in a year due to lockdown in Cali running 3rd? That’s impressive. I was at race announcer said she hasn’t raced in 13 months. Sydney is a monster though. Good grief.
tj wrote:
[quote]Indoor? wrote:
You could be right, but I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned the altitude factor of Lubbock (around 3,000ft). This would have made it much easier for the high altitude Wyoming-based Thorvaldsen, compared to the Brown coming from low-altitude East Texas. Thorvaldsen had a big advantage here. I wouldn't be surprised if it was much closer if both were racing at sea level.
NCAA Altitude conversion calculator has about 12.5 seconds for the top boy, about 13.5 seconds for Sydney.
always thought that to get an official High School record you have to run without Pacers against high school athletes
Isn't that why Mary Cain's 428 Mile and 4:39 2 Mile are not official High School records both happening in Pro races
It looks like according to Wikipedia that there's a couple of organizations that certify it which makes it confusing and there's also age group records and under 20 records or youth records so still plenty of Records to shoot for
Anyway anytime you run a time trial information it's a big advantage that's why kipchoge Marathon isn't an official official record
Still think people are living in Fantasyland with the times they're throwing out. Or else the speed ratings would be much higher
It's like Sydney massarelli had a great cross-country year and suddenly she was going to rewrite the record books
Until you do it in an actual race where you don't have everything set up for your perfect time it's a big difference
Hopefully Sydney thorvaldson and Hutchins have a chance to battle it out in track season. I think the two mile is their best events. I would say 440, 950, 1550 would be really good times for them in legit High School races
There should be uniform rules regarding what conditions have to met to set a record, but I am not aware of any and if they exist they are ignored. It is clearly feasible on a track to set up conditions that create considerable time advantages compared to an ordinary race. If you set up a scenario where you have your own pacers and you can draft off them the entire distance, gaining the maximum draft bonus and saving the mental and physical energy of pacing yourself, you will run a significantly faster time than if you ran the distance without any assistance. Pacing happens in races, but at what point does it cross the line? How may laps should be permitted and how many pacers allowed? There does not appear to be any consensus and so records may be set with very different degrees of difficulty.
Pretty sure there are rules that are set up and all that
Pacing is not allowed at legitimate High School races. It only happens at some of these invite only races or at Pro races.
If so the rule book is being ignored. Wholesale.
Heck when Brown ran that "time trial" in May the running press went gaga over it and people on this board were insisting it count as a legitimate record. In the write up to the LCU race the co-founder for this site was referring to it as a straight up 3200 meter time and not what it was, an artificially assisted result. If people were/are so eager to treat an assisted time as a record (on an uncertified track without any safeguards to prevent running inside the lane to boot), then what is the point of following the rules?
Earlier this year Hutchins ran a 3200 where she had two pacers pace her for 6 of the races 8 laps. I never saw anything like that in a high school race. Heck I don't think I have seen that in a pro race. The advantage and benefit that gave her was over an unassisted run was substantial. But if she had gotten the record time it would have been acclaimed as the record. The same running press that thought Brown's "time trial" was a record and seems genuinely confused as to why an artificially boosted time does not translate into actual race results does not care.
It is all about the headlines. The details are irrelevant.
I'm talkin about official High School races. Where you're running with a high school team and competing against other high schools
In every state that I know of when it's an official High School meet pacemakers are not allowed and you could disqualify if you had someone on your team try to act as a pacemaker
Where you see pacemakers these are basically private races, invitationals, or professional races
In Pro races as far as I know there's no rule about how far the pacemaker can Pace you. Technically they are an entry in the race and can run the whole race if they want and even try to win which has happened a few times
But you're right the longer your pace and the more pacemakers you have can really help a Time
It's basically one second a lap is about the average you gain from a pacemaker if you're really using it correctly and running right behind them. Brown running in formation like that was probably two seconds a lap cuz she was being flanked on both sides,
Brown is the fastest of all time but won't be for long. Hutchins and Thorvaldsen will both run legitimate 9:29s this spring. Tuohy will be far down the list when this group is done.
Guessing Hutchins would have run 15:25 had they not pulled her from the track meet.
astro wrote:
I remember going over this and I got all sorts of blowback. No one wanted to hear it. But that TT was not a valid result even ignoring the lack of controls and certification of the course. It was an assisted time . I thought at the time that getting to draft behind and be paced by runners from wire to wire was worth about 12-15 seconds. It was just basic physics.
Wow. Between your pessimistic posts on the Valencia half thread and this, you are making a sad name for yourself.
Are you optimistic or celebratory in regards to anything in the running world?
Was I wrong? Nope.
And I am not to blame for the state of the sport. Not the only sport affected.
Video of the race?