Is it Normal to Train this Fast? (Tinman Workout)

You don’t know what average means, do you?

Tempo and threshold aren’t very fast and the reps are only 1200m. It’s very common now for runners to incororate that either into their warm-up or run the first rep of a workout slower to ease into it and set themselves up for running the next ones better. I know I always run better in races or workouts if I do 800-1200m of threshold running in my warmup. If you actually paid attention to the splits, this was a cutdown workout and it looked like every rep was meant to get 10 seconds faster. That’s just the workout and you can disagree with it if you want, but you can’t say that they’re running their own workout wrong.

%Vo2max does not equal % strain

80% vo2max = ~tempo pace

85% vo2max = ~threshold pace

90% Vo2max = ~ CV pace

100% vo2max = all out effort for about 6-7 minutes

We are not talking about the strain rate included in the video. We were talking about the fuel sources they were using (fat vs. carbs) and I pointed out that the relative speed they were running at couldn’t possibly be primarily fat burning. The fuel sources used for running at relative speeds as a percentage of Vo2max are well documented, and based on their race times we can estimate what that percentage is for them for each repetition.

Some yahoo thought that they were primarily using fat when running the first rep in 3:45, which is absolute nonsense. Based on a 13:30 5K time (which they’ve run), that’s tempo pace for them or about 80% of Vo2max. Carbs are the primary fuel source at that effort and that’s just a fact. There is no debating that.

I did find this study which found FatMax occurring at as high as 88.8% of VO2Max and as low as 25%. I'm guessing these guys in the workout video have FatMax nowhere near 88.8% because they are not ultra guys or long-course triathletes. But 88.8%, holy sh!t, that's amazing to me!

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/307549210_Maximal_Fat_Oxidation_Rates_in_an_Athletic_Population

SlowFatMaster wrote:

I did find this study which found FatMax occurring at as high as 88.8% of VO2Max and as low as 25%. I'm guessing these guys in the workout video have FatMax nowhere near 88.8% because they are not ultra guys or long-course triathletes. But 88.8%, holy sh!t, that's amazing to me!

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/307549210_Maximal_Fat_Oxidation_Rates_in_an_Athletic_Population

Sure but remember at FATMAX, most of your energy is coming from carbs not fat. Fatmax is the when fat burning is highest in absolute terms not percentage of energy. 88% is still nuts. Most trained athletes are in the 70-75% range..

Can't Stand Tinman wrote:

Runner10287 wrote:

Obscure YouTube channels aren't being forced on you.

I'm subscribed to his newsletter. :I can't stand it. I wish Tinman would just stop. And his athletes are so full of themselves. I think they could be a little more humble. Focus less on politics and more one running.

MAGAKAG

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA

I watched this video about a month ago. My initial reaction was, "why did they run the first one so slow?" Could have been because they didn't really want that hard of a workout, I don't really know. Either way, that first 1200 wasn't much of a stimulus and as someone else pointed out already was more like an up tempo portion of the workout.

As to the battle royale going on about over mixed paced workouts.....I can only shake my head. Every good runner ever has done many, many mixed pace workouts in his or her career.

80% VO2max = 50% fat 50% carbs

85 % VO2max = 70/30

90 % VO2max = 95/5

92% V02 max = 100 % carbs

80% is extensive endurance running

85% is around marathon pace

90% is not too fast for short tempo runs

92% is approximately half marathon pace and ventilatory threshold.

So elite marathon runners are probably running a marathon at more than 85% VO2max

Workout should have been 6 x 1200, starting at 10k pace and workout down to 3k pace at the very fastest. Next

oh yes wrote:

80% VO2max = 50% fat 50% carbs

85 % VO2max = 70/30

90 % VO2max = 95/5

92% V02 max = 100 % carbs

80% is extensive endurance running

85% is around marathon pace

90% is not too fast for short tempo runs

92% is approximately half marathon pace and ventilatory threshold.

So elite marathon runners are probably running a marathon at more than 85% VO2max

92% Vo2max is definitely not half marathon pace, for anybody. LT ranges from 60% Vo2max in untrained individuals to ~85-88% Vo2 max in highly trained runners. If you have a good source for that, cite it because those numbers seem off. I haven’t seen anything putting LT in the 90% range. I haven’t seen anything putting 100% carb usage at anything slower than 100% Vo2max either.

There’s no way that 80% Vo2max is 50/50 for carb and fat burning. The crossover is usually in the 60-low 70% range, depending on the individual.

Kicker where do your numbers come from?

You are obviously using some spurious definition of "LT" which is closer to marathon pace

I can assure you that for endurance athletes, my numbers are correct. You want a source? Well start with Daniels and work forward 40 some years, you will find plenty info to keep you going for a while.

I just can't stand Tinman

oh yes wrote:

Kicker where do your numbers come from?

You are obviously using some spurious definition of "LT" which is closer to marathon pace

I can assure you that for endurance athletes, my numbers are correct. You want a source? Well start with Daniels and work forward 40 some years, you will find plenty info to keep you going for a while.

Kicker knows nothing, just talks out of his rear end

oh yes wrote:

Kicker where do your numbers come from?

You are obviously using some spurious definition of "LT" which is closer to marathon pace

I can assure you that for endurance athletes, my numbers are correct. You want a source? Well start with Daniels and work forward 40 some years, you will find plenty info to keep you going for a while.

Read below:

"Marathon pace running

The next zone, which is similar in target to the E zone, is marathon-pace running (M).

This zone should occur less frequently that E running and generally takes the place of a long run at E pace, becoming a long run at M pace.

The intensity based on VO2max and 24 HRmax should be 75-84% and 80-90%, respectively.

Workouts for this zone should not last more than 90 minutes or 16 miles on long days, but are usually of shorter duration.

The main purpose here is to get the body accustomed to the pace at which it will run the marathon. "

"Threshold training

Daniels describes threshold training (T) as running done at a “comfortably hard” pace for about 20-60 minutes.

Runs of this sort should not last longer because they are done at a pace at which blood lactate is building up in the body.

As far as VO2 and HR, the pace is 83-88% and 88-92% of maximum, respectively.

The key purpose of this workout is to build endurance by encouraging a positive shift in the lactate threshold of the runner.

If this is done, the runner will be able to run at a greater intensity without blood lactate accumulating in the body. "

I trust Daniels. This is straight from Daniels.

+ 1

Daniel's is giving general advice for a broad spectrum of runners aiming at racing those distances. This will include pure distance runners and those better suited to shorter distances.

Do you agree or disagree with this?

Tinman is giving each runner he coaches individual pace guides based on his assessment of their own ability and experience. Specific numbers for % VO2max (fractional utilisation) are not the same for different runners.

Do you agree or disagree with this?

Real distance runners race at a higher percentage of VO2max in a half marathon or marathon than middle distance runners.

Agree or disagree?

oh yes wrote:

Daniel's is giving general advice for a broad spectrum of runners aiming at racing those distances. This will include pure distance runners and those better suited to shorter distances.

Do you agree or disagree with this?

Tinman is giving each runner he coaches individual pace guides based on his assessment of their own ability and experience. Specific numbers for % VO2max (fractional utilisation) are not the same for different runners.

Do you agree or disagree with this?

Real distance runners race at a higher percentage of VO2max in a half marathon or marathon than middle distance runners.

Agree or disagree?

-Agree, but the values still apply to most reasonably fit runners

-Agree with the stipulation that they are not wildly different at the elite level

-Agree

I know that elite runners will often run at a higher percentage of their Vo2max and Daniels does have research showing elite females running in the 82-85% of Vo2max range for the marathon. Quoting directly from his work:

"The reference to relative intensity is an important one, because it is the authors' belief that well-trained runners all perform at near-equal percentages of their respective Vo2maxes for various durations of time... In support of this contention, is the fact that eight of the subjects in the current study, all of whom raced marathons within a few weeks of being tested, performed at an average of 84.6% of Vo2max, with six of the eight between 84.0 and 84.9% of Vo2max (the other two were at a calculated 82.8 and 88.2% of Vo2max)"

Source: Daniels J, Daniels N. Running economy of elite male and elite female runners. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1992 Apr;24(4):483-9. PMID: 1560747

Most elite runners do not appear to race the marathon above 85% of Vo2max.

For those athletes, I can see a %Vo2max at LT just cracking 90%, but I would argue that the values I've laid out would apply to almost everyone else. In the grand scheme of things, it's a couple of percentage points and running pretty close to those values is usually good enough.

What a noob. In an earlier post you said you put their first rep was at approx 80% VO2 and claimed that's tempo pace for them.

What you just posted PROVES THAT WRONG. You posted Daniels puts MARATHON PACE at 75-84% of VO2.

You were WRONG. Based on your own data, their first 2 reps were actually run at marathon pace.

aztec the moron wrote:

What a noob. In an earlier post you said you put their first rep was at approx 80% VO2 and claimed that's tempo pace for them.

What you just posted PROVES THAT WRONG. You posted Daniels puts MARATHON PACE at 75-84% of VO2.

You were WRONG. Based on your own data, their first 2 reps were actually run at marathon pace.

Really? It's wrong? 80% Vo2max does not lie between 75-84% of Vo2max?

I don't use tempo pace and marathon pace interchangeably, but it's a close approximation for these guys. Tempo has various definitions depending on the coach, but in this discussion I was using the value for "tempo pace" given by Tinman's calculator. They're also not marathon specialists, which means that their marathon pace would be run at a lower % of their Vo2max (as oh yes pointed out), so it is absolutely possible that they would be running around 80% of Vo2max instead of the higher end around 84% seen in marathon specialists. I never stated that they were running exactly 80% of Vo2max anyways. I merely gave an approximation and it completely agrees with the research I quoted.

I'm not really sure what you're arguing. None of these points contradict each other. We agree that they're running close to their marathon or tempo pace for at least one of the reps.

80% is between the 75-84% range that is FOR MARATHON PACE.

You said their first rep was run at tempo pace. It was actually run at marathon pace. That means you were WRONG.

Tinman literally had his guys go from marathon pace to 800 pace in only a 7000 meter long workout (200s were at 28 and most of them can't run 1:52, I bet Drew was at best in 1:51 shape at that point)

This wasn't a "multi paced" workout.....it was an "ALL OF THE PACES" workout. DUMB.

There’s overlap, just like some elite runners whose LT is pretty much their half marathon pace. From the calculator, their tempo pace is almost the same as their marathon pace. There’s a difference of about 5 seconds/mile. Marathon pace, tempo pace, not exactly equivalent but in this context it’s just semantics at this point.