I almost think this question is irrelevant if, like most people on this site you assume anyone world class is doping. Jakob at 19 years of age is already a lock for a medal at next years Olympics and has consistently been breaking records since he was 13-14. If everyone is doping then he’s still the most talented of the dopers.
Side note: do people also think Max Burgin is doping? Hilarious if you Americans think he’s doping just because he’s faster than any of your youngsters
extreme bias wrote:
rekrunner wrote:
Cacho -- you ask where are the great Spanish runners now? I ask where were the great ones then? I looked for great performances all time, and found that Spain couldn't even distinguish itself from other non-Africans of the '80s. Besides Cacho, and a few 2:09 marathoners, I found no evidence of any Spanish distance juggernaut, just a short-lived effort to be as fast as other non-Africans before and after them.
Cacho was not the only sucessful middle distance runner from Spain in the late 1990s.
Just look at Seville 1999 1500m...
Yeah I was thinking WTF when I read that post - that poster has just totally discredited himself. There were a ton of top level Spanish runners in the 1990s early 00s.
A few 2h 09 marathoners?? WTF?? Off the top of my head there was Roncero solo running 2h 07 marathons, Abel Anton running stuff like 2h 07 marathons and winning multiple world titles, and Rey who ran a 2 06 marathon (where were all those Europeans running 2 06s in the 1980s? I must have missed them...), and Fiz ran what 2h 08 ?, and there were probably others if anyone wants to Google the subject. This was before the marathon suddenly changed in around 2008/09.
Of the global champ medalists, again off the top of my head they had guys repeatedly winning medals at 1500m, 3000m, SC, and Marathon. They won a team bronze medal in the world cross champs in 1990s - which other non African nations managed this during that time ? France maybe? - but with a team of North Africans. At the European level Spain dominated the distances.
Spain had some top class runners in the 1980s such as Abascal and Gonzalez but to imply that they did not make a radical improvement on that level during 1990s just sounds completely stupid. I guess the poster expected to see an army of dudes running sub 12 minute 5ks to be convinced of any notable improvement....
FinnJ wrote:
I could understand if you believe he is taking something else, but not epo, which many people here believe. Why is it so hard not to see that people have different genes? His father has hem 17,5+ with Jakob slightly lower. It shows us that the family got a rare genetic makeup or else his father is also doping
Because he is not as good as Rupp
Luv2Run wrote:
enough of the pseudoscience people wrote:
Tell me how EPO delivers more oxygen than a healthy V02 max and circumvents thermoregulation and I'll give you $10,000.
I cannot make heads or tails of what you are asking here.
I know. You have made this clear with countless thousands of posts over the years that you have no idea about energy transfer, cell homeostasis, thermoregulation, calorimetry etc. You know.... basic physiology stuff?
And you too can win the $10,000 prize I'm offering if you can answer the question.
My point being that VO2 max has to be properly measured. Otherwise, what happens all too regularly is that a submaximal measurement is taken, but the researchers convince themselves it is maximal. So when a subsequent maximal measurement is made, the researchers convince themselves is is supramaximal. In study after study this error is made with great fanfare.
Many think everyone who is good dopes. They are the dopes. No knowledge of track. Just pushing a bogus agenda. Dopes.
enough of the pseudoscience people wrote:
Luv2Run wrote:
I cannot make heads or tails of what you are asking here.
I know. You have made this clear with countless thousands of posts over the years that you have no idea about energy transfer, cell homeostasis, thermoregulation, calorimetry etc. You know.... basic physiology stuff?
And you too can win the $10,000 prize I'm offering if you can answer the question.
My point being that VO2 max has to be properly measured. Otherwise, what happens all too regularly is that a submaximal measurement is taken, but the researchers convince themselves it is maximal. So when a subsequent maximal measurement is made, the researchers convince themselves is is supramaximal. In study after study this error is made with great fanfare.
You should invest in a writing class once you wrap up high school biology
restrunner wrote:
bigballs800 wrote:
Re-watch Monaco and see the first two runners finishing, not even tired, the look on their face says it all. Now, watch 3rd place, British guy, looks like he going to die. That's one sign that 3:28 looked too comfortable. How fast would Ingebritsen gone if he hadn't gone outing sub 55? 3:26? that's El G territory in the EPO era.
Look at Sebastian Coe after setting his 1:42 or his first Mile WR both from 1979 . He looks like he has just finished a walk in the park.
He was certainly showing strain on his face at the end of his 1:42 WR, and clearly a little winded. Same with most of his WRs (see 1000m in 81). He did look relaxed at the end of his 1st mile WR because he pratically jogged the last 100m (14.8 last 100m) and was capable of a lot faster than 3:48.9, even then.
extreme bias wrote:
Cacho was not the only sucessful middle distance runner from Spain in the late 1990s.
Just look at Seville 1999 1500m...
I didn't say "successful", but that they didn't run faster than non-Africans before and after them, and they were far behind Africans.
After all we were talking drugs as the only possibility causing Jakob to run 3:28. Cacho was the only Spaniard able to run under 3:30.5.
Your 1999 Seville example has 3 Spaniards running 1-2 seconds slower than Coe, Cram and Maree did 13-14 years earlier, and 2-4 seconds slower than the Africans who took gold and silver. This answers the question where the Spanish "juggernauts" were.
90s crappy training methods wrote:
extreme bias wrote:
Cacho was not the only sucessful middle distance runner from Spain in the late 1990s.
Just look at Seville 1999 1500m...
Yeah I was thinking WTF when I read that post - that poster has just totally discredited himself. There were a ton of top level Spanish runners in the 1990s early 00s.
A few 2h 09 marathoners?? WTF?? Off the top of my head there was Roncero solo running 2h 07 marathons, Abel Anton running stuff like 2h 07 marathons and winning multiple world titles, and Rey who ran a 2 06 marathon (where were all those Europeans running 2 06s in the 1980s? I must have missed them...), and Fiz ran what 2h 08 ?, and there were probably others if anyone wants to Google the subject. This was before the marathon suddenly changed in around 2008/09.
Of the global champ medalists, again off the top of my head they had guys repeatedly winning medals at 1500m, 3000m, SC, and Marathon. They won a team bronze medal in the world cross champs in 1990s - which other non African nations managed this during that time ? France maybe? - but with a team of North Africans. At the European level Spain dominated the distances.
Spain had some top class runners in the 1980s such as Abascal and Gonzalez but to imply that they did not make a radical improvement on that level during 1990s just sounds completely stupid. I guess the poster expected to see an army of dudes running sub 12 minute 5ks to be convinced of any notable improvement....
Once again, we were talking about drugs like EPO producing fast times, like Ingebrigtsen running 3:28.
OK 2:07 marathoners. How many Spaniards ran faster than Steve Jones and Carlos Lopes did in the mid-1980s? I count 1.
What happened in the EPO-era of the 1990s is that Spain rose to European levels of the 1980s, while much of Europe, and America, stagnated or regressed. This was the European response in the EPO-era to the massive improvements in times from the East and North Africans.
I didn't expect sub 12 minute 5Ks, but compared the fastest Spaniards with the fastest non-Africans before and after, finding them not significantly faster, while at the same time, much slower than the fastest East and North Africans of the same time.
spot on! wrote:
enough of the pseudoscience people wrote:
I know. You have made this clear with countless thousands of posts over the years that you have no idea about energy transfer, cell homeostasis, thermoregulation, calorimetry etc. You know.... basic physiology stuff?
And you too can win the $10,000 prize I'm offering if you can answer the question.
My point being that VO2 max has to be properly measured. Otherwise, what happens all too regularly is that a submaximal measurement is taken, but the researchers convince themselves it is maximal. So when a subsequent maximal measurement is made, the researchers convince themselves is is supramaximal. In study after study this error is made with great fanfare.
You should invest in a writing class once you wrap up high school biology
Maybe Luv2run and all the rest of you should learn some high school biology?
rekrunner wrote:
90s crappy training methods wrote:
Yeah I was thinking WTF when I read that post - that poster has just totally discredited himself. There were a ton of top level Spanish runners in the 1990s early 00s.
A few 2h 09 marathoners?? WTF?? Off the top of my head there was Roncero solo running 2h 07 marathons, Abel Anton running stuff like 2h 07 marathons and winning multiple world titles, and Rey who ran a 2 06 marathon (where were all those Europeans running 2 06s in the 1980s? I must have missed them...), and Fiz ran what 2h 08 ?, and there were probably others if anyone wants to Google the subject. This was before the marathon suddenly changed in around 2008/09.
Of the global champ medalists, again off the top of my head they had guys repeatedly winning medals at 1500m, 3000m, SC, and Marathon. They won a team bronze medal in the world cross champs in 1990s - which other non African nations managed this during that time ? France maybe? - but with a team of North Africans. At the European level Spain dominated the distances.
Spain had some top class runners in the 1980s such as Abascal and Gonzalez but to imply that they did not make a radical improvement on that level during 1990s just sounds completely stupid. I guess the poster expected to see an army of dudes running sub 12 minute 5ks to be convinced of any notable improvement....
Once again, we were talking about drugs like EPO producing fast times, like Ingebrigtsen running 3:28.
OK 2:07 marathoners. How many Spaniards ran faster than Steve Jones and Carlos Lopes did in the mid-1980s? I count 1.
What happened in the EPO-era of the 1990s is that Spain rose to European levels of the 1980s, while much of Europe, and America, stagnated or regressed. This was the European response in the EPO-era to the massive improvements in times from the East and North Africans.
I didn't expect sub 12 minute 5Ks, but compared the fastest Spaniards with the fastest non-Africans before and after, finding them not significantly faster, while at the same time, much slower than the fastest East and North Africans of the same time.
1 race! The fastest men's 1500m championship race in history in which THREE Spaniards finished on positions 3, 4 and 5 (only two Africans were ahead of the 3rd best Spaniard). If this is not just extraordinary for you, than I don't know what could be.
I don't say anything about the reason for this, just that it must be astonishing for any objective observer.
I don't know why it is so difficult to read the posts before responding to them.
I didn't say "successful" or "extraordinary in 1 race". I said "I looked for great performances all time" and "Spain couldn't even distinguish itself from other non-Africans of the '80s".
Spain is part of the reason "Salvitore Stitchmo" can't believe Ingebrigtsen ran 3:28 cleanly -- despite Spanish runners generally not running all time fast, with only one runner faster than 3:30.50, with or without drugs.
Note when "I looked for great performances all time" -- this was for 1500m, 3000m, 5000m, 10000m, and the marathon. With or without drugs, Spain was not unusually fast in any event, compared to non-Africans both before and after the 1990s.
These are objective assessments based on all time rankings.
Ofc he is doping
Everybody is a doper. Which means yep a level playing field.