Jakob 1:46.4 with perfect pacing for 750m

kettlepot wrote:

Coevett wrote:

He's 35 going on 12 and constantly plays the game of accusing everybody who disagrees with him of being me.

Pot meet kettle.

Hi ex-runner!

Coevett wrote:

kettlepot wrote:

Pot meet kettle.

Hi ex-runner!

Thank you for pointing out your own hypocrisy.

kettlepot wrote:

Coevett wrote:

Hi ex-runner!

Thank you for pointing out your own hypocrisy.

Hahaha

Thanks for your obviously very well thought of ideas.

You might be right with most of it. But if your coute "that east African are only superior because of genetic and doping" was addressed to me: I havn't said this at all. I stronly believe, that genetics is ONE of many factors for their success. Alongside with all what you have written.

When "unknown" 20 years old Kenyans in their debut - often in their first travel outside of Kenya - can run Marathon times some western runners can't dream of even after training for well over 10 years absolutely professional, then "running to school" can't be the explanation.

(Wilson Kipketer's answer, when confrontated with this stereotype: "I has lived beside the school..." yes, he was an 800m runner, not long distance).

kettlepot wrote:

Coevett wrote:

Hi ex-runner!

Thank you for pointing out your own hypocrisy.

lmao amazing

Ex-runner and Coevett are always arguing. Why don't you meet, face to face, and have the battle everybody is longing for? And while you are at it, make sure the whole thing is streamed. on different channels.

Discussion wrote:

Ex-runner and Coevett are always arguing. Why don't you meet, face to face, and have the battle everybody is longing for? And while you are at it, make sure the whole thing is streamed. on different channels.

I guess you won that,

discussion.

Please discus.

So a thread about Jakob running 800m turns into the interminable debate about East Africans and racial advantage.

letsdrum wrote:

Bad Wigins wrote:

As many as it takes, obviously.

Jeeeez.

Hopefully you are joking.

Let this reply be the proof that I'm not joking. Choge is the 800+ GOAT. Only man ever

sub 1:45

sub 3:30

sub 7:30

sub 12:55

sub 60

nobody can touch that range.

Bad Wigins wrote:

letsdrum wrote:

Jeeeez.

Hopefully you are joking.

Let this reply be the proof that I'm not joking. Choge is the 800+ GOAT. Only man ever

sub 1:45

sub 3:30

sub 7:30

sub 12:55

sub 60

nobody can touch that range.

Yes, you are not joking. Maybe some sort of autism? Posting the same stuff hundreds of times without any interest in the arguments against it seems to be so weird, that this could be the explanation?

I'm looking forward for your next 100!

letsdrum wrote:

Bad Wigins wrote:

Let this reply be the proof that I'm not joking. Choge is the 800+ GOAT. Only man ever

sub 1:45

sub 3:30

sub 7:30

sub 12:55

sub 60

nobody can touch that range.

Yes, you are not joking. Maybe some sort of autism? Posting the same stuff hundreds of times without any interest in the arguments against it seems to be so weird, that this could be the explanation?

I'm looking forward for your next 100!

You mean, his next 2600?

Bad Wigins wrote:

letsdrum wrote:

Jeeeez.

Hopefully you are joking.

Let this reply be the proof that I'm not joking. Choge is the 800+ GOAT. Only man ever

sub 1:45

sub 3:30

sub 7:30

sub 12:55

sub 60

nobody can touch that range.

But the fundamental purpose of competition is winning. Yes, he has an impressive range, but what medals has he won?

Certainly not as many as Aouita (who ran faster over 800m and was certainly capable of at least 12:55 over 5k and 27 low over 10k) or indeed Ovett, who could run a 46.8 400 relay and win medals at 800, 1500 and 5000m.

I agree very much to most of your long post!

Especially that a guy who is doing the right well balanced aerobic training from a young age can do extremely well as EL-Guerrouj, Gressier and Jakob have done. Also Gebrselassie, Bekele Kipchoge and Bernard Lagat comes to mind.

My opinion on these pages has been that Jakob can improve for many more years because he add a new layer to his aerobic foundation each year. And on top of that he will get stronger and faster naturally the next 3-4 years when fully maturing. Put together this will guarantee further improvement provided he stays healthy.

But I will come with some further comments about Jakob because I think there are some wrong ideas on these pages about Jakob abilities and potential:

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

A.

Somewhat true, but there IS a real need for him to develop more speed. He lost the indoor 2019 European double (1500/3k) because Lewandowski outkicked him.

He could not medal in Doha because Lewandowski and Makloufhi again were faster. If he wants to be considered a serious threat in the Olympics next year, he has to find a way to beat these guys (Tim seems out of reach for anyone right now).

If running an 800 is an end-product of him doing more speed training or working on his ability to finish a 1500 fast, then it seems to be purposeful.

B.

Being okay with his 800m speed being 3-4s slower than his main competitors seems a bit odd. Maybe he thinks that El Guerrouj's 1:47 PR was his real ability level and that he can do the same as The Great. Too bad that this 800m PR was from 1995, long before his peak.

Objectiveobserver writes:

A.

There seems to be almost a consensus on these pages that Jakob lacks speed so he is always outsprinted in the finish. In another post LateRunnerPhil claimed that Jakob was outsprinted/ smoked in the last 100-200m in DOZENS of races.

Sometimes Jakob is compared to Lewandowski and Makhloufi and sometimes to Centro and Engels and these other runners are always considered superior when it comes to speed.

But is it true?

I will say no! And to LateRunnerPhil, Alfred de Musset and ex-runner my opinion is based on FACTS:

Watch race videos from the following videos where Jakob was close to his best and see that Jakob in no way is inferior to the above mentioned runners:

1500m Palo Alto 2018

Bowerman mile 2018

1500m DL Monaco 2018

1500m DL Lausanne 2019

1500m DL Monaco 2019

1500m DL Brüssel 2019

No one who watch these videos can deny that Jakob when he is at his best is the fastest or second fastest in the 1500m of the top runners in the last lap (sometimes he finish faster than Timothy). And see how Centro cannot hold 17 years old Jakob´s back in the 3 runs in 2018. Centro has still not beat Jakob in 7 meetings! Neither have Engels to my knowledge.

And see that Jakob is "smoking" Lewandowski when Jakob is on his best in Monaco and Brüssel (Lewandowski didn´t run the 1500m in Lausanne where Jakob set PB).

So it is a completely false myth that Jakob is a slow finisher.

Jakob lost narrowly to Lewandowski and Makhloufi in Doha in a 1500m final where Makhloufi took silver in SB 3:31.38 and Lewandowski took bronze in PB 3.31.46. Jakob was fourth in 3:31.70 around 1.5 seconds from his PB 3:30.16. So was it because Jakob lacked speed he lost in Doha or was it because he wasn´t at his best?

Jakob´s problem in Doha was that he didn´t manage to peak at the right time. None of the brothers did neither in the 1500m nor the 5000m.

But I will add that I agree with you and others that it is time for Jakob to add some speed work to his training at least when the competition season is coming near. Not so much to improve his 800m times but to benefit his perfomances from the 1500m and up. It would be nice to have the body accustomed to speed when the pacemakers run the first 800m in the 1500m close 1:50.

The speed work could be short repetitions with longer breaks, under distance time trials (600, 800 and 1000m) and so called sharpeners where you on the 400m track jog in the turns and gradually accelerate on the straights. I have done a lot of that kind of training myself with good effect.

B. I agree that El-Guerrouj could have run a much faster 800m time than the one he ran at 20 years old.

But you have a completely blind angle:

You correctly assume that E-G was much better in his prime (his mid twenties) than he was at 20 BUT WHY SHOULDN´T THE SAME BE VALID FOR 19 YEARS OLD JAKOB?

Are you also singing the false melody that Jakob is just about to peak? See also below under C.

Ex-runner wrote

C.

It is not safe to assume this was an average race. It was a perfect race in perfect conditions with perfect pacing for these slow twitch guys. Jakob had someone to draft for 750m. He will never run 1:43 ever.

D.

Jakob ran 3:42 at 15, 3:39 at 16, then improved to 3:31 at 17, and then 3:30.1 at 18

It is difficult to draw a pattern.

One thing that is clear is they took 3-4 years to build to elite athletes after breaking 3:40, and then rapidly in 1-2 years reached their lifetime bests.

Jakob's improvements seem to be shortened into a much smaller time frame than his brothers. Likely due to the fact that he trained with them at a high level whilst young. He has rapidly improved from 3:39 to 3:31 and then a more gradual 3:30.

It looks like he has reached a bit of a plateau, but I'd expect he runs faster this year or next and then chips another second or two over the next few years. Maybe he will peak around 21-22 with a 3:28 time.

Objectiveobserver writes:

C.

While the 800m race in Oslo was a race under rather good conditions (I would say it was too cold; a 800m runner loves the warmth: No wind and 25 degrees Celsius is perfect) it was still an early season race and as a former runner yourself you must know that you normally run seconds faster in the high season in July and August or even September. Running competitions is the best way to sharpen. Likewise soccer players normally get in better shape gradually as the season progress.

I was a (veteran) middle distance runner myself starting the competition season in May but I didn´t peak before late summer. Normally I ran at least 2 seconds faster in the summer.

Some other examples:

Donovan Brazier ran in 2019 a good season opener in DL Doha 1:44.70. He, however, ran in the WC final almost 2.5 seconds faster in 1:42.34.

In 2019 Lewandowski opened the 800m in DL Stockholm with 1:46.79! Later he ran 1:43.74 in DL London. More than 3 seconds faster!

Amel Tuka won the 800m DL Stockholm in 1:46.68. He was no. 2 in the WC Doha final in 1:43.47.

So it is – even amongst toprunners – normal to improve with 2-3 seconds from the season opener to the SB!

I am not sure if Jakob will run more 800m this year but it must be quite possibly that he a fast well paced 800m has potential to run at least 2 seconds faster (1:44.50) in THIS high season if he sharpens in his normal way.

So I will challenge the theory that Jakob is a typical slow twitch runner. On the contrary he would possibly be able to run a very fast 800m within some years if he made some relevant preparations. ALSO HE RAN ABSOLUTE WORLDCLASS TIMES IN THE 800M WHEN HE WAS 14 AND 15. A real slow twitch runner could not have done that.

D.

In 2017 when Jakob was 16 he as a matter of fact ran closer to 3:40 than to 3:39 as you stated.

BUT 2017 was an atypical year for Jakob where he never got a chance to run a fast 1500m in the high season. He, however, already in DL Oslo ran a mile in 3:56 which possibly equals to around 3:38.5 in the 1500m. And if he had run a fast race he could most likely have dipped to around 3:36-3:37 and in that respect the improvement to 3:31.18 in 2018 is not as steep as it looks.

Here from he quite rightly improved with only 1 second to 3:30.16 but as you has pointed out yourself in another thread he could possible have run 3:29 if there had been a faster race in the high season of 2019.

So he is possible still in good progress! I won´t be surprised if Jakob Breaks 3:28 this year if there will be a fast race with good pacemaking.

You don´t mention Jakob´s progression in the 5000m in 2019 but it was quite steep:

From 13:17 to 13:02.

You have mentioned in another thread that Jakob had potential to go 12:55 already in 2019 and I agree. So in principle he could have improved with 22 seconds last year!

I, however, think that he in 2018 also could have gone faster than 13:17 and even in 2017 he could have gone faster than 13:35.

But in any case: His progression in the 5000m is far from flattening. In think he can break 12:50 this year in a fast race.

Webb was still running 1:46s as late as 2007, the year he dropped down to 1:43.84. Who says that Jakob is tapped out for speed? He may and I'm sure does need more speedwork to maximize, but he will go faster than this. A slight positive split is not ideal for the 800m. 2 seconds positive is said to be ideal. That would be more like 51.5/53.5=1:45. 25.5/26/26.5/27.

How many medals had Aouita got when he was 19?

"First I'd like to say I never claimed I was right about Jakob running 1:46. I said I thought he would run 1:45. I posted that immediately after the race, confirming I was too optimistic."

Those three sentences alone can hardly have come from a non-native speaker. Sure, there's no comma after 'first,' but those are some hard tenses to get right: conditional, indirect speech, counterfactual, and verbal phrase as apposition.

objectiveobserver wrote:

How many medals had Aouita got when he was 19?

Ah yes, Coevett, and did Aouita have two lab rat brothers, an obsessive coach/father, perfect training conditions, and professional training since childhood?

I am a native English speaker, yes.

Not sure what you are saying.

I must have thought that you had claimed to be a non-native English speaker. In fact, that must have been the Scandinavian guy with the really long posts.