Sebastian Coe vs Said Aouita - 1500/mile race - Who would win?

Yes, my mistake. 52 is still premature though.

Really, my point was to compare it with the 'evidence' that Coe doped - his blood disorder. From what I've read, hemochromatosis can be caused by repeated blood transfusions. So it's not caused by an infection via the transfusion (which is what people are claiming happened with Coe and his alleged blood doping), but the act of repeatedly blood doping itself messing up your system.

The first paragraph of the Wikipedia entry on the disease says :

Or put it another way - if Coe developing a blood disorder caused by a common infection which has multiple possible sources, a type of blood doping extremely rare being one of them, means that Coe doped, it's beyond doubt that the Portuguese guy did. Thankfully for his memory, there is not a 1% chance Coe doped based on the 'evidence' of his blood disorder.

Interestingly, Morceli had a similar problem with his 'iron levels', which needed hospital treatment, and that is the common reason given for his sharp decline after 2000.

Yes 52 is still tragically young to die today.

Anyway back to Zurich 84 - looking at the mile race with Walker (probably still lacking some specific mile speed work) hot on the heels of Aouita into the last 100m, you have to think that Walker probably made an error in choosing to run the 5000m in LA. He probably had a much better chance of medaling in the 1500m. Just imagine that LA final with Coe, Cram, Walker, Aoutia, Abascal, and a healthy Ovett all in the mix with 300m to go. That would have been undoubtably the greatest 1500m final of all time....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ze_fkLP7U4c

flying Spaniards wrote:

Yes 52 is still tragically young to die today.

Anyway back to Zurich 84 - looking at the mile race with Walker (probably still lacking some specific mile speed work) hot on the heels of Aouita into the last 100m, you have to think that Walker probably made an error in choosing to run the 5000m in LA. He probably had a much better chance of medaling in the 1500m. Just imagine that LA final with Coe, Cram, Walker, Aoutia, Abascal, and a healthy Ovett all in the mix with 300m to go. That would have been undoubtably the greatest 1500m final of all time....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ze_fkLP7U4c

Yeah, I've always thought that too. Walker still showed flashes of his former glory over the years, including right at the end of his career when he was looking very good going in to the Commonwealth final against Elliott but fell.

84 could have been a classic final, as well as 88 if a healthy Cram, Coe, (Ovett maybe a little long in the tooth by that point even without the health and injury problems), Aouita, Bile, and Elliott had all showed up.

Coe was linked to Francesco Conconi. So it is very likely he was doping.

Training in Italy and blaming a cat for his blood disorder is very suspicious.

He probably transfused his own blood which got infected when it was being handled.

Sporting Clube de Portugal wrote:

Coevett wrote:

It's not contracted through autologous blood transfusions, as has been pointed out to you many times.

What we know about doping in Spain and Portugal, makes it much more likely that a 5000m runner at that time from those countries, who then dies from an illness at age 32 whose main cause is repeated blood doping, was blood doping. There is NO circumstantial evidence that Coe doped (apart from being 'pretty fast for a white boi').

Coe was linked to Francesco Conconi. So it is very likely he was doping.

Training in Italy and blaming a cat for his blood disorder is very suspicious.

He probably transfused his own blood which got infected when it was being handled.

Coe was not linked to Francesco Conconi. Where is the proof of that? You think journalists or the Fancy Bears wouldn't have gotten hold of something like that?

What, were the Italian doctors, none of whom have come forward in 40 years despite Putin probably willing to pay them millions if they did, stirring his blood with their fingers after forgetting to wash their hands or something?

Interesting on Coe and his blood transfusion correlation to doping. It's a plain fact that he was never tested to the likes of El Guerrouj, and in fact, it's hard to find much on how frequently Coe was tested. From my knowledge, those were the days of steroids, caffeine, and blood transfusions.

I'd put Coe at over 50% likelyhood that he had blood transfusions to enhance performance and if it were 2019, he'd be like Paula Radcliffe, failing biological passport tests and trying to explain offshoot scores.

Coevett wrote:

Nobody could possibly accuse Deano of being unfair to Aouita.

"unfair to Aouita" - what do you mean?

unfair like you? wrote:

Coevett wrote:

Nobody could possibly accuse Deano of being unfair to Aouita.

"unfair to Aouita" - what do you mean?

Err..yeah, Said and yourself have accused me of being unfair to somebody with links to a doctor busted for supplying multiple athletes peds, chased out of Australia for pressurizing several athletes to use HGH and other peds, and who transformed himself from a sub-elite to GOAT in the space of one winter after moving to Italy.

Which sort of tells us everything you've said in this thread is bo11ocks.

Coevett wrote:

Sporting Clube de Portugal wrote:

Coe was linked to Francesco Conconi. So it is very likely he was doping.

Training in Italy and blaming a cat for his blood disorder is very suspicious.

He probably transfused his own blood which got infected when it was being handled.

Coe was not linked to Francesco Conconi. Where is the proof of that? You think journalists or the Fancy Bears wouldn't have gotten hold of something like that?

What, were the Italian doctors, none of whom have come forward in 40 years despite Putin probably willing to pay them millions if they did, stirring his blood with their fingers after forgetting to wash their hands or something?

This is getting confusing Coevett; was it Aouita that was linked to Conconi? And what was Conconi up to in the 1980s anyway?

track1992 wrote:

Interesting on Coe and his blood transfusion correlation to doping. It's a plain fact that he was never tested to the likes of El Guerrouj, and in fact, it's hard to find much on how frequently Coe was tested. From my knowledge, those were the days of steroids, caffeine, and blood transfusions.

I'd put Coe at over 50% likelyhood that he had blood transfusions to enhance performance and if it were 2019, he'd be like Paula Radcliffe, failing biological passport tests and trying to explain offshoot scores.

Wow...that high of a possibility? That's going to polarize more posters here - the battle lines have seem to already been drawn.

Instead of 40 pages of Aouita or Coe, make the Brits on letsrun declare probability of cheating by Coe. Make the Brits declare probability of cheating of Ovett. Make Brits choose. Tell the Brits on letsrun they have to pick: Was Ovett clean? Or, was Coe clean? Half of the 40 pages on this thread focus on Coe's 1983 season or lack of a T&F season. Focus on Coe's spikes in performances at earlier ages. At earlier ages is when P. Coe more likely than not experimented. All the Brits will say if they have to choose one, Ovett or Coe, all the Brits I guarantee will state Ovett was clean. If that is not the case, that means one or more Brit on here has a personal relationship with S.Coe, either employed by S. Coe or a blood relative.

Sporting Clube de Portugal wrote:

Coevett wrote:

It's not contracted through autologous blood transfusions, as has been pointed out to you many times.

What we know about doping in Spain and Portugal, makes it much more likely that a 5000m runner at that time from those countries, who then dies from an illness at age 32 whose main cause is repeated blood doping, was blood doping. There is NO circumstantial evidence that Coe doped (apart from being 'pretty fast for a white boi').

Coe was linked to Francesco Conconi. So it is very likely he was doping.

Training in Italy and blaming a cat for his blood disorder is very suspicious.

He probably transfused his own blood which got infected when it was being handled.

No, you have made that up. There is no link between Coe and Conconi. I have seen several links between Cova and Conconi, but never any evidence that Coe ever even met him, apart from anonymous trolls who can make up such a claim.

Put your money where your mouth is and provide one link that suggests Coe was a client of Conconi, other than an anonymous poster on a forum.

track1992 wrote:

Interesting on Coe and his blood transfusion correlation to doping. It's a plain fact that he was never tested to the likes of El Guerrouj, and in fact, it's hard to find much on how frequently Coe was tested. From my knowledge, those were the days of steroids, caffeine, and blood transfusions.

I'd put Coe at over 50% likelyhood that he had blood transfusions to enhance performance and if it were 2019, he'd be like Paula Radcliffe, failing biological passport tests and trying to explain offshoot scores.

Coe was tested in competition throughout his career, (world records had to be ratified with a drug test), tested randomly out of season by UK Athletics from 1984, and by the IAAF from the beginning of 1989.

There was no test for blood doping during Coe’s or El G’s eras of competition. However, Coe was very active (published a Governmebt White Paper with the then Secretary of State for Sport) in getting the practice banned, which it was in 1985. Why would someone who relied on blood doping for his success, call for it to be banned half way through his career?

There was widespread use of EPO during EL G’s career, which was far more effective than blood transfusions, until 2000; and even then it was known to be an ineffective test until 2005, the year EL G retired.

We know now that many African nations were not randomly tested out of competition, either through the difficulty in tracing athletes training in remote high altitude camps, or because their national federations were too poor to pay for it. Many of EL G’s training group and Moroccan peers were eventually caught doping. While this in itself is not proof of EL G’s use, I would be very surprised if their most talented athlete by far was one of the few clean ones.

I would also be surprised if El G were tested outside of competition more than Coe was for most of his career.

Deanouk wrote:

No, you have made that up. There is no link between Coe and Conconi. I have seen several links between Cova and Conconi, but never any evidence that Coe ever even met him, apart from anonymous trolls who can make up such a claim.

Put your money where your mouth is and provide one link that suggests Coe was a client of Conconi, other than an anonymous poster on a forum.

And there are links between Cova and Aouita, and I'm pretty sure Canova himself stated here in one thread that Aouita trained with Cova sometimes at Tyrennia, on the west cost of Italy.

Ask the Brits a different question wrote:

Instead of 40 pages of Aouita or Coe, make the Brits on letsrun declare probability of cheating by Coe. Make the Brits declare probability of cheating of Ovett. Make Brits choose. Tell the Brits on letsrun they have to pick: Was Ovett clean? Or, was Coe clean? Half of the 40 pages on this thread focus on Coe's 1983 season or lack of a T&F season. Focus on Coe's spikes in performances at earlier ages. At earlier ages is when P. Coe more likely than not experimented. All the Brits will say if they have to choose one, Ovett or Coe, all the Brits I guarantee will state Ovett was clean. If that is not the case, that means one or more Brit on here has a personal relationship with S.Coe, either employed by S. Coe or a blood relative.

No they wouldn’t. I strongly believe that neither doped, but the opportunity for Ovett to dope was greater, if you know anything about British athletics at the time.

Most of the testing on British soil was carried out under the overview of Andy Norman, probably the most powerful and influential man in European Athletics throughout the 80’s. He was also the guy who determined whether or not UK athletes could run on the European circuit. He stipulated that you had to run a certain number of domestic races in order to be allowed to run abroad. Even Coe had to toe the line on that, and he was actually told he couldn’t run in Oslo in 79, when he broke the 800 WR.

The only athlete exempt from this protocol, who often pulled out of international matches at home or European Cup competitions at short notice, was Ovett.

Why?

Because Andy Norman was not only Ovett’s agent, but also the Best Man at Steve’s wedding.

As I said, I strongly believe neither took anything, but it would be much easier for Ovett to get away with something than Coe. And Norman is on record as saying he always picked Coe to be tested after competition.

You responded to my post but you largely ignored what I stated. You did not address the unusual spikes in S. Coe's performance. It has been stated in P. Coe's writing and also in this thread: S. Coe was not the only young runner to go from 400m personal best of 56.xx at age 14 to 400m personal best of 46.xx by age 22. P. Coe told us: short sprints, power lifting, circuit training and reduction of mileage. There are many youth who train smartly from ages 14 to 22. S. Coe was not the only one to make a ten second improvement from 56.xx to 46.xx 400m during said age time span. I've that improvement in others with significant physical maturation. I'd like you Brits who post as if you all are in the know to tell us details of that period in S. Coe's life. Stating Ovett had a tough hard nose agent is stating anything.

You sound like a gibbering idiot. I think you're said88 trying to directly accuse Coe of doping.

I don't know much about running other than some history, but it sounds crazy that you're accusing Coe of doping for going from 56 to 46s 400m between 14 and 22.

I just took one top 800m runner at random who has 400m times going back yearly - Kyle Langford, and he went from 52.34 as a 15 year old to 48.17 as an 18 year old. Seb Coe started off in school as more of an xcountry runner didn't he?

I think you're just trying to divide me and Deano. I don't think either doped, and I agree with Deano that Andy Norman was an extremely shady character. It's highly likely he intentionally scuppered several of Coe's WR attempts through the choice of Robinson as pacemaker, and I doubt very much he would have let Coe get away with doping.

One of the principle reasons for autologous blood transfusions, other than doping, is to minimize the risk of infection to near zero.

On the other hand, one of the drawbacks of such blood transfusions is the potential to develop anemia...something that Morceli had to be hospitalized for after 96 and is widely credited with his sharp decline. Morceli blood doping the old fashioned way would also explain his emergence before what is commonly accepted to be the start of the EPO era.

http://www.anesthesia.org/winterlude/wl98/Cormack.htm

Just found a classic article from the British Miler's Club in 1990 accusing Aouita of cowardice for ducking his opponents.

Well I've learned three new things in the last 20 minutes -

1/ there is almost zero risk of infection from the type of blood doping that was used in the 70's/80's, so trolls accusing Coe of doping will have to stick to 'evidence' such as ....errr. he improved his 400m time between 12 years old and 22 years old.

2/ on the other hand, it looks damning that Morceli basically fell off a cliff at age 26 from anemia which can be caused by blood doping.

3/ We can credit Aouita for the introduction of prize money in to the circuit by the IAAF in the early 90s. They did it specifically to force cowards like him and his fellow countrymen to compete with the best. Aouita wasn't such as malign influence on track as I thought and something good came from his career after all!

Chew and stew Said, chew and stew.