Sebastian Coe vs Said Aouita - 1500/mile race - Who would win?

You have not watched the race - how on earth can you give infos how the race unfolded ("... he was not chasing the clock...")?

And directly from Mr Coevett himself:

My replay:

That's the point of view from the liar himself and and one of his many handles (as I believe, or there just is another mad one like him). Just a reflection of what he (they?) think has happened or what they wish. Quotes taken directly right of their as...

And now the correct version.

The race was in August, in the absolute height of the season. It was the purest time trial from Ovett someone can think of. Ovett directly after the start went behind two pacemakers. The three went well ahead of the field very soon, a gap of something like at least 20 meters opened. The 2nd pacemaker took Ovett until 1100m and Ovett reached 1200m in 2:50.44. Then he dramatically slowed down (43.34 for the final 300m). Bile was running at the end of a too big field and passed all of them (running very wide) in the last 500m and closed the gap to Ovett on the homestretch, obviously having no clue about his true potential. The race was run on Ovett's favoured track in Koblenz, where he has set his best 1500m and Mile times (apart from Rieti with the obviously extremely good conditions).

It was Ovett's only sub 3:34 after his last WR at the age of 27. The race was run 1 week after his great 5000m Gold at the Commonwealth games.

And now, compare the reality with the 100% made up "version" of Coevett. We should take any, really any, "fact" which Coevett presents us with the biggest portion of scepticism possible. We are talking here about just number based facts which are easy to verify (but Coevett even doesn't accept pure facts like that if they don't fit his agenda).

What about all the other points which he regularly brings to this forum as "facts" and which are just highly speculative and just nobody has an clear knowledge about the reality.

For sure I can't remember a race which was run 32 1/2 years ago. For sure I have looked on the race before I gave my replay to your lie.

Steve Ovett is one of my favourite runners. After his last WR at age 27 he never was in a shape which puts him as some contender for some global medal. In mid 1986 he was in great shape and won the 5000m at the Commonwealt games. 1 week later he run a pure time trial over 1500m on his favoured track in Koblenz. Two pacemakers (Harald Olbrich and James Mays) helped him until 1100m (well ahead - at least 20m- of the field) and Ovett reached 1200m in 2:50.44. Obviously with the intention to at least break his PB of 3:30.77. Just, he wasn't in that kind of shape. And he never was after 1983 (and even in 1983 he just could run that fast in Rieti, where many athletes just went when they wanted achieve a fast time). Ovett just was not as fast as Coe or Cram, even in he 1500m. That's my opinion (and for sure not even close over 800m). In his best years (1977 - 1981) he was a fantastic "Miler" with a great finish. One of the all-time greats. On a few occasions he could extend his miling class to the 800m and/or 3000m+5000m. But not close to the best in these events. In any (really any) fast race at these events he faded badly. If someone just states fantastic times which he "could" have done - well, everyone has the right to believe what ever he/she wants. It's just not backed up by the facts.

Well why don't you upload the video to YouTube then? Surely you've got the intelligence to do that?

You still haven't contradicted anything I said. You say he 'dramatically slowed down' which may be true, but 'eased up' when he's 20 meters clear and he's aware he's not going to break the WR (or his pb) might be another equally valid way of saying it. Remember he had the European Championships very soon after that. Why would he bust his guts out to run 3:31 or 3:32? And no, the other poster was not me, grow up.

You're also doing what you accuse myself of doing when you claim that Bile 'was obviously not aware of his true potential'. What a joker. You're saying Bile would have beaten Ovett if he'd only known that he was a better runner than Ovett??? LOL!

Coevett wrote:

You still haven't contradicted anything I said. You say he 'dramatically slowed down' which may be true, but 'eased up' when he's 20 meters clear and he's aware he's not going to break the WR (or his pb) might be another equally valid way of saying it. Remember he had the European Championships very soon after that. Why would he bust his guts out to run 3:31 or 3:32? And no, the other poster was not me, grow up.

You're also doing what you accuse myself of doing when you claim that Bile 'was obviously not aware of his true potential'. What a joker. You're saying Bile would have beaten Ovett if he'd only known that he was a better runner than Ovett??? LOL!

Exactly, that's the way most WR attempts (or PB attempts) are done: take two pacemakers; reach 1200m in the necessary time to achieve your goal, and then - just "ease up". Every close follower of distance running knows that's the normal procedure in record attempts. Unfortunately this wasn't one of those normal ones. On this occasion the athlete in question has run very hard until he has reached the finish (but lost 3 (or 4 if he really has had the WR as goal?) seconds on the last 300m). 3:33.78 - that's (after 1983) what he could do while in great shape in a 100% made up record attempt (maybe a few tenths faster when starting little bit slower). Every faster time is just wishful thinking.

Abdi Bile was running on LAST POSITION during big parts of the race, maybe at least 30 meters behind Ovett. He has had to pass a way too big field on the last 500m and came relatively close to Ovett. To me it's obvious that he already in 1986 (even in 1985) has had the potential to run much faster. In Rome 1987 and in 1989 I'm pretty sure he was in 1500m WR shape. But - to be honest - I don't think he was a very clever man...(this could be completely wrong, for sure I don't know him. It's just based on a few races). In Pescara 1989 he clearly was on the way to run sub 3:30, when an stupid pacemaker at 1200m interrupted his way and Bile had to run very wide and to accelerate new. He still run 3:31.20.

Just for clarification: I'm not and I never was anything like a fan of Abdi Bile - completely different to Ovett, who is one of my all-time greats. But I think Bile could definitely have run under 3:30 in both 1987 and 1989, whereas Ovett (in my estimation) could not have done this.

said88 wrote:

[quote]Coevett wrote:

You still haven't contradicted anything I said.

Coevett: "... he was not chasing the clock..."

Reality: 100% time-trial with two pacemakers way ahead of the field and running hard until the finish.

No contradiction for Coevett.

Coevett wrote:

Benenisa Kekele wrote:

I don't know if Leitao doped or not but he was dying in the last 200. hardly running Aouita into the ground.

And 2nd place was Swiss, not Portuguese.

Well he died of a rare disease whose main cause is repeated blood transfusions, so yes, we can be fairly confident that he was doped to the gills.

Oddly enough, the guy who came 5th in that final (Paul Kipkoech) also died soon after at age 32. The silver medalist Markus Ryffel had a very strange career and could barely break 14 minutes again after LA.

Tim Hutchings was probably the clean winner of that race, and look what Ovett did to him just two years later.

Coe had toxoplasmosis in 1983 more than likely from a botched blood transfusion.

The British probably covered it up as toxoplasmosis, to hide the fact they were or at least Coe was doping.

They feared it might be a reaction of an immune system suppressed by pushing the body so remorselessly that at times he could barely grip the steering wheel on his car at the end of training. Doctors concluded his illness was toxoplasmosis, a disease that affects the glands and was probably transmitted by a cat while he trained in Italy.

Cat? Training in Italy? Definitely signs of a serial doper as Coevett would say repeatedly.

“Probably”, “likely”,....

All hypothetical supposition.

Facts about toxoplasmosis: -

-half the world’s population either have had it or carry it.

- most cases are contracted by contaminated or undercooked meat.

- blood doping at that time was almost entirely autologous, especially in wake of HIV infection. That means if Coe were blood doping, he would have caught toxoplasmosis from his own blood!

The idea that an Olympic champion would just used some anonymous donor’s unscreened blood is laughable.

And if he were blood doping then surely that would have been their first port of call when he started under-performing in training and competition. Why did it take several months to discover what was wrong?

Also, there was no need for him to go public about what was wrong with him. Why admit to having something if you knew it was acquired through doping? Doctor/patient confidentiality meant his disorder would never have been disclosed. It would be much easier to have claimed he had glandular fever or something else.

You can guarantee that someone somewhere would have been privy to any immoral practices by Coe as an athlete, and I’m sure his peers in the UK would have voiced their opinions at the time, for any cover up would have been rumbled by someone. Yet, 35 years later, not a single person has come forward to offer a shred of evidence against him.

No, it's exceedingly unlikely you could get a blood infection from an autologous blood transfusion, as would be how Coe would be blood doping if he was. This has been explained to you many times.

As Deano said, we havethe most rabid press eager for a scandal in the entire world in GB. An we LOVE to pull down a hero. 30+ years of journalists no doubt trying to explore every possible lead that would point to Coe doping, and not a thing. Similar with Putin, who no doubt would love to get something on Coe.

Look at how we handled the Paula scandal or the Sky team. An MP named Paula as a likely doper in Parliament on 1/100th of the evidence against Aouita, or even El G. The Sky team was scrutinized via a parliament enquiry and condemned, even though there's no real suggestion or evidence that they were using EPO and such, but simply stretching the rules and integrity of the sport similar to NOP with track.

Kip Kenio embezzeled millions of dollars from young Kenyan Olympic athletes as head of the Kenyan Olympic committee, but got away with it at the request of Kenyan Parliamentarians because he's 'a national hero'.

Coevett wrote:

Kip Kenio embezzeled millions of dollars from young Kenyan Olympic athletes as head of the Kenyan Olympic committee

Coevett, that's a very serious accusation. I may have missed something on here but could you please provide a link to that?

Thanks in advance.

Benenisa Kekele wrote:

Coevett wrote:

Kip Kenio embezzeled millions of dollars from young Kenyan Olympic athletes as head of the Kenyan Olympic committee

Coevett, that's a very serious accusation. I may have missed something on here but could you please provide a link to that?

Thanks in advance.

Not a single word from Deano when Coevett for one year did his usual "Aouita dodged Coe in Zürich". A side length explanation why everything for sure was OK when it's getting clear that Coe didn't want Aouita in the race (I'm not arguing in any direction - Coe or Aouita - , I'm just pointing on the bias). Res Brügger was present at the 5000m victory ceromonie for Mamede, Leitao and Ryffel, so I think he attended the meeting.

common knowledge wrote:

Benenisa Kekele wrote:

Coevett, that's a very serious accusation. I may have missed something on here but could you please provide a link to that?

Thanks in advance.

https://www.apnews.com/8e4703e83c044496bb07c417bef3e241

Try a later date, you useless troll.

+1

I have stated the same narrative before on this issue re Coe and Aouita in Zurich. It shouldn’t be my job to jump in at every opportunity to correct or corroborate one person’s opinion, or get involved in a squabble between two posters. I don’t agree with your summation of Ovett’s ability over 800m, but I haven’t gone into a tirade or continued to discuss the point with you, as there is no point; you have your own opinion. Likewise, why would I do the same with Covett about another issue?

Coe stated himself in one of his books that Brügger was ill for that meet, which is where I got the info from.

This coming from guy who just a few posts ago stated Antonio Leitao probably doped with no basis for his accusations besides, Leitao died hemochromatosis at age 51.

This could have been a genetic disorder but you are willing to go and smear Leitao's name without any grounds.

So I am within my grounds of suspecting Coe of blood doping due to his toxoplasmosis which may be contracted via blood transfusions.

So don't play the high ground. You're happy to suspect anyone of doping with minimal (if any) evidence.

You going to call Carlos Lopes and Fernando Mamede as dopers as well because they are Portuguese? Wouldn't surprise me if you did just because they are not Anglo-Saxon.

Laughable.

Deanouk wrote:

I have stated the same narrative before on this issue re Coe and Aouita in Zurich. It shouldn’t be my job to jump in at every opportunity to correct or corroborate one person’s opinion, or get involved in a squabble between two posters. I don’t agree with your summation of Ovett’s ability over 800m, but I haven’t gone into a tirade or continued to discuss the point with you, as there is no point; you have your own opinion. Likewise, why would I do the same with Covett about another issue?

Coe stated himself in one of his books that Brügger was ill for that meet, which is where I got the info from.

My comment ("not a single word") was - in this clarity - stupid and wrong.

But I'm just so tired to read over all those years all these lengthy, enormously biased explanations, justifications, excuses why the british middle distance runners are superiour in any aspect. Why they COULD have done this or that. Why they are ethically superiour ("brits likely don't dope" - as we have learned from Coevett some days ago (definitely one of the most stupid comments in letsrun history - which really means A LOT)). Why it was "allowed" for them to dodge others constantly but not the other way round. Why on any bad performance there was some strange injury behind (africans probably are never injured, I guess). And so on and on...

Coe stated that Brügger didn't attend the '84 Weltklasse meet? So the lord is a proofed liar. Makes him even more suspicious to be havin'g heavily doped throughout his career. Correct?

I'm so tired of all this nonsense and will probably leave this board - it's just too much.

Josh Birnbaum wrote:

This coming from guy who just a few posts ago stated Antonio Leitao probably doped with no basis for his accusations besides, Leitao died hemochromatosis at age 51.

You're happy to suspect anyone of doping with minimal (if any) evidence.

Laughable.

"You're happy..." - that's the point. If it "helps" to support the british runners in some way.

said88 wrote:

Josh Birnbaum wrote:

This coming from guy who just a few posts ago stated Antonio Leitao probably doped with no basis for his accusations besides, Leitao died hemochromatosis at age 51.

You're happy to suspect anyone of doping with minimal (if any) evidence.

Laughable.

"You're happy..." - that's the point. If it "helps" to support the british runners in some way.

Exactly he is a hypocrite.

The point I am making is that if I follow his logic (or the Coevett's way of justifying opinion), I can say as I did that Coe probably doped because of his toxoplasmosis which can be contracted via blood transfusions, which also occurred during his running career. Then Coe comes back to win in 1984. How convenient.

If this happened to any other runner who is not Lord Coe or British, Coevett will gladly call that runner doper just on those premises.

Funnily enough Coe trained in Italy as well as did Aouita. That's probably enough to confirm Coe doped.

Josh Birnbaum wrote:

This coming from guy who just a few posts ago stated Antonio Leitao probably doped with no basis for his accusations besides, Leitao died hemochromatosis at age 51.

This could have been a genetic disorder but you are willing to go and smear Leitao's name without any grounds.

So I am within my grounds of suspecting Coe of blood doping due to his toxoplasmosis which may be contracted via blood transfusions.

It's not contracted through autologous blood transfusions, as has been pointed out to you many times.

What we know about doping in Spain and Portugal, makes it much more likely that a 5000m runner at that time from those countries, who then dies from an illness at age 32 whose main cause is repeated blood doping, was blood doping. There is NO circumstantial evidence that Coe doped (apart from being 'pretty fast for a white boi').

You seem to be attacking Deano simply because he's being fair and agrees with me on certain points regarding Coe.

Nobody could possibly accuse Deano of being unfair to Aouita. I haven't seen any doping accusation from Deano, and has as far as I'm aware never even mentioned the Australian scandal or the links with 'Doctor Syringe'.

It's clear what happened in Zurich. Coe was willing to face Aouita in a proper race, it it was going to be a 'what would have happened in LA if Aouita had a pair of balls' scenario.

As Deano says, Coe knew that that night might have been his last ever chance to get back his 1500 WR, or run to his true time potential at the distance (which he never did, even in his 3:29 past his best in 86).

Aouita had countless opportunities to face Coe, including of course at LA when it would have really mattered, just before Zurich. Aouita admitted that he competed in the 5000m rather than the 1500 at major events because he had a better chance of winning, although the 1500 was his favorite event. So he chose the 5000m (where he had done nothing before 84 to suggest he was world class in) in LA because he thought he might get beaten by the Brits in LA. He then called Coe's victory 'hollow'.

As Deano suggests, it was probably about money. It's possible Aouita wasn't even serious about facing Coe that night, but was trying to push up his price (and Coe his price too).

The fact that they never ended up racing each other, despite having almost parallel careers is incredible. It's almost as if they had some kind of agreement never to race each other.

Don't want to spoil a cordial friendship between you and Deano, both of whom are two of the most knowledgeable fans of that era in the world, but you're just being a bit immature really to attack him simply because he isn't joining in your (and the rent-a-mob) attacks on me here.