Has Ritz been mentioned or implicated in all of this? If so I am going to finally give up on humanity.
Has Ritz been mentioned or implicated in all of this? If so I am going to finally give up on humanity.
BestDrugTest wrote:
I came up with my own drug test over the years. Actually, it's a test of dishonesty, psychosis and narcissism from which you can conclude for certain an athlete or coach would be more than willing to cheat. Since I don't know Al personally I am going to use 2 examples which are from my own experiences:
1. 2014 NYC half - I was standing in line behind two women waiting for a porta' john to free up. We had a good 10 min until the race start. We were all participating. As the person inside was exiting, out of nowhere comes AlSauce and tries to jump the line, get inside and shut the door! The woman next in line refused to let him in and was holding the door open. He let out this huge grunt, made some comment under his breath and stormed off as the crowd called him names. Of course the hobby joggers around us didn't know who he was but that face was hard to miss. My interpretation is he thought he was above the rules so could just cut the line and go in as he wished. He literally was struggling with this woman. Insane. He is more important than everyone else, and he wasn't even running. I posted about this the day it happened but of course the thread was deleted.
2. This is back in 2005 during a road trip from west to east coast. I was with a close buddy and we were staying with a few friends in Eugene. We went down to the track to watch the team work out and there was AlSauce with Rupp by themselves off to the side. There was nothing special about this scene but just watching the two of them interact was interesting. Rupp looked like this shell of a boy just standing there listening to Al with his mouth open. Just seeing them completely separate from the team the whole time was weird. It smelled like complete manipulation.
So back to my test. He's shown all the signs of egomania and narcissism. He thinks he's more important than everyone else, is on an absolute power trip, thinks he's above the law, needs admiration, has a strong sense of entitlement, and exploits others. He has a lot in common with Gatlin, Lance and other cheaters. The outbursts give much away. It's pretty easy to tell the chapters out there by their character and behavior.
oh my, yes. also, i saw a vid of hasay and cain doing a workout (on flotrack maybe?) where the two of them looked like these scared obedient little girls. and hasay was looking underweight, which was no surprise. I'm sure a lot of people reading this saw it and know what i'm talking about. they were just under his spell. i remember thinking it was a really weird scene...especially hasay who was out of college, looking up at AlSal like a scared middle schooler.
yes, you can see when one of these hardcore narcissist coaches has a young person under their spell. i have been coaching a long time and you can spot these guys (and women) a mile away.
The entitlement, the need for attention, the self-importance....all of it. a well-known college coach in my area was exactly like this, until s/he finally started doing things that were just too stupid and arrogant...s/he was out the door within 72 hours of the last dumbest incident. it is sad, because it is a mental illness that caused a talented person to lose their career.
i think we are seeing salazar do the same thing.
exthrower wrote:
letsbang wrote:I took a 5 day "burst" of it when I was stuck in a bad migraine cycle several years ago. At the time, I was very much a hobby jogger who did 2-5 miles once or twice a week and had no intention of ever racing.
The second day I was on Prednisone, I "accidentally" ran 10 miles. Combination of WAY TOO MUCH ENERGY and being too jittery to realize how far I'd gone. Wasn't tired after either. Couldn't go to sleep that night - just wanted to bounce off the walls.
Based on my own experience, I have no problem believing that it can be performance enhancing. It certainly was in my case.
I had a similar experience as well. Took it for 5 days for poison ivy and just felt awesome for the whole week/crushed workouts etc. This is long before I had heard anything about it helping performance. The effects were such that I even asked one of the pharmacy majors at my school about it and he said that it was unlikely...not that type of steroid etc.
I will say that I also felt like complete shit for a couple weeks once I came off of it.[/quote]
Some of the side effects are muscle weakness, fat deposits on the back of the shoulders and developing a moon face....[/quote]
The part about not being able to sleep is interesting. Does anyone remember reading the reports that Mo stayed awake for more than 24 hours after winning the 10,000 in London?
crazy narcissist coaches wrote:
oh my, yes. also, i saw a vid of hasay and cain doing a workout (on flotrack maybe?) where the two of them looked like these scared obedient little girls. and hasay was looking underweight, which was no surprise. I'm sure a lot of people reading this saw it and know what i'm talking about. they were just under his spell. i remember thinking it was a really weird scene...especially hasay who was out of college, looking up at AlSal like a scared middle schooler.
yes, you can see when one of these hardcore narcissist coaches has a young person under their spell. i have been coaching a long time and you can spot these guys (and women) a mile away.
The entitlement, the need for attention, the self-importance....all of it. a well-known college coach in my area was exactly like this, until s/he finally started doing things that were just too stupid and arrogant...s/he was out the door within 72 hours of the last dumbest incident. it is sad, because it is a mental illness that caused a talented person to lose their career.
i think we are seeing salazar do the same thing.
So now we're talking about Karen Harvey?
exthrower wrote:
The Geomathematician wrote:All these anecdotes about the performance-enhancing effects of prednisone are hilarious.
Stay beautiful, my highly suggestible friends.
They probably heard the word "steroid", and became giddy....Prednisone has zero effect on athletic performance..
I'll trust the WADA's doctors over a knuckle-dragging racist on this matter.
rainbow connection wrote:
exthrower wrote:They probably heard the word "steroid", and became giddy....Prednisone has zero effect on athletic performance..
I'll trust the WADA's doctors over a knuckle-dragging racist on this matter.
Just because prednisone didn't improve the performance of a single THROWER doesn't mean it doesn't work in every single athletes, particularly those who run.
MartinJenkins wrote:
The part about not being able to sleep is interesting. Does anyone remember reading the reports that Mo stayed awake for more than 24 hours after winning the 10,000 in London?
My senior year of high school I prd by 8 seconds in the 1600 in a single race. To this day it's one of the best races of my life. I was so excited after I couldn't sleep that night. I stayed up till 5 AM - 6 AM just lying in bed, trying to sleep but too giddy with excitement to do so. I wasn't on prednisone or anything of the sort, but that kind of stuff happens sometimes. Not that I think Mo is clean or anything, but just saying...
Also I would love if track went back to being more like American football. Where doping is technically illegal but the testing is kind of a joke. It would be so much more exciting. Just think of how exciting sprinting was when Bolt, Powell, Gay, and Blake were all going at it running out of this world times? Then they all got popped for doping (except for Bolt) and sprinting became boring as shit for a few years. Now Gatlin's back to his old doping self and sprinting's starting to get fun again. Gambling and drinking at track meets would be awesome as well. Imagine going to the Adidas Grand Prix and spending 2 hours chugging beers, gambling, and watching the world's greatest runners put up freakish performances in race after race. Tell me interest in track and field wouldn't skyrocket.
bigtool05 wrote:
My senior year of high school I prd by 8 seconds in the 1600 in a single race. To this day it's one of the best races of my life. I was so excited after I couldn't sleep that night. I stayed up till 5 AM - 6 AM just lying in bed, trying to sleep but too giddy with excitement to do so. I wasn't on prednisone or anything of the sort, but that kind of stuff happens sometimes. Not that I think Mo is clean or anything, but just saying...
Also I would love if track went back to being more like American football. Where doping is technically illegal but the testing is kind of a joke. It would be so much more exciting. Just think of how exciting sprinting was when Bolt, Powell, Gay, and Blake were all going at it running out of this world times? Then they all got popped for doping (except for Bolt) and sprinting became boring as shit for a few years. Now Gatlin's back to his old doping self and sprinting's starting to get fun again. Gambling and drinking at track meets would be awesome as well. Imagine going to the Adidas Grand Prix and spending 2 hours chugging beers, gambling, and watching the world's greatest runners put up freakish performances in race after race. Tell me interest in track and field wouldn't skyrocket.
Nice! 8/10
bigtool05 wrote:
Also I would love if track went back to being more like American football. Where doping is technically illegal but the testing is kind of a joke. It would be so much more exciting. Just think of how exciting sprinting was when Bolt, Powell, Gay, and Blake were all going at it running out of this world times? Then they all got popped for doping (except for Bolt) and sprinting became boring as shit for a few years. Now Gatlin's back to his old doping self and sprinting's starting to get fun again. Gambling and drinking at track meets would be awesome as well. Imagine going to the Adidas Grand Prix and spending 2 hours chugging beers, gambling, and watching the world's greatest runners put up freakish performances in race after race. Tell me interest in track and field wouldn't skyrocket.
One problem with the whole scenario of having a bunch of mutant track and field stars - yeah, it would probably be exciting to see people run really fast, throw really far, etc. Until we got used to it. Then it would just become the new norm, and we'd be right back where we are. As a mental exercise, picture Carl Lewis winning the 1984 Olympics in 9.99, then picture Bolt running 9.58 - a huge chunk faster. Does it really make any difference visually? Don't they both basically just look like fast guys running down the track? Or as someone mentioned earlier, does a 13:20 5k actually appear any different to a 12:50, if you're not checking splits?
The point is, times are only mind-blowing in comparison to other times from the same era. A 13:10 5k would have been mind-blowing in 1930, but it's boring nowadays. Similarly, if all-out doping was allowed, maybe some would find in interesting when the 100m record was reduced to 8.95, but when the record-setting stalled out, then what?
exthrower wrote:
Prednisone has zero effect on athletic performance..
Posts are easily lost in swampy threads like this, so you probably missed this one:
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?board=1&thread=6535765&id=6540031#6540031From 2009:
http://link.springer.com/artic...9-8#page-1"These data indicate that short-term glucocorticoid intake improved endurance performance in women, but further investigation is needed to determine whether these results are applicable to elite female athletes and, if so, current WADA legislation needs to be changed."
From 2007:
http://faculty.ksu.edu.sa/Khal...INTAKE.pdf"From these data, short-term prednisolone intake did appear to significantly improve performance during submaximal exercise with concomitant alteration in hormonal and metabolic responses."
(Prednisolone is the biologically active product of prednisone metabolism by the liver.)
From 1996:
http://link.springer.com/artic...BF00869001"We conclude that prednisone, given in an appropriate dose, protects muscle fibres against the development of mechanically induced damage, possibly by stabilizing the muscle fibre membranes."
There's probably a reason WADA has prednisone on its in-competition banned substances list. In the longer term, glucocorticoids would probably wear you down more than they would help you. But in the short term, the energy burst is undeniable and probably easily channeled into aiding some types of athletic performance. When my 84-year-old grandfather with COPD went on a prednisone taper, he was like Jim Carrey's character in "The Mask" and not only cleaned his whole house for the first time since 1947 in about eight minutes, he practically tore it off the foundation.
Apologies if this had already been shared, but how great is this transition scene when they land in Portland: http://i.imgur.com/pb7MF8x.png
That sign should read.
TURN
TO NOP
YIELD
TO PEDS
Natl Organization of Pissants wrote:
bigtool05 wrote:Also I would love if track went back to being more like American football. Where doping is technically illegal but the testing is kind of a joke. It would be so much more exciting. Just think of how exciting sprinting was when Bolt, Powell, Gay, and Blake were all going at it running out of this world times? Then they all got popped for doping (except for Bolt) and sprinting became boring as shit for a few years. Now Gatlin's back to his old doping self and sprinting's starting to get fun again. Gambling and drinking at track meets would be awesome as well. Imagine going to the Adidas Grand Prix and spending 2 hours chugging beers, gambling, and watching the world's greatest runners put up freakish performances in race after race. Tell me interest in track and field wouldn't skyrocket.
One problem with the whole scenario of having a bunch of mutant track and field stars - yeah, it would probably be exciting to see people run really fast, throw really far, etc. Until we got used to it. Then it would just become the new norm, and we'd be right back where we are. As a mental exercise, picture Carl Lewis winning the 1984 Olympics in 9.99, then picture Bolt running 9.58 - a huge chunk faster. Does it really make any difference visually? Don't they both basically just look like fast guys running down the track? Or as someone mentioned earlier, does a 13:20 5k actually appear any different to a 12:50, if you're not checking splits?
The point is, times are only mind-blowing in comparison to other times from the same era. A 13:10 5k would have been mind-blowing in 1930, but it's boring nowadays. Similarly, if all-out doping was allowed, maybe some would find in interesting when the 100m record was reduced to 8.95, but when the record-setting stalled out, then what?
Yeah but that's a lot better than the malaise that would result if we got REALLY stringent with anti-doping controls. I mean eventually we'd get used to nobody ever breaking 10 in the 100 or 13:00 in the 5k, but we'd always know in the back of our minds that, as good as the best clean runners are, they're nothing compared to the Kenenisa Bekeles and Usain Bolts of yesteryear.
Bad Wigins wrote:
Djjfjdgdg wrote:running road races, not.But that's where your supposedly "missing" athletes are.)
Apples and oranges. Marathons don't require the same rate of oxygen consumption, the game there is about running economy and conserving energy. With blood doping made difficult, it's only logical that athletes would move to an event where it matters less.
In any case, there is no shortage of new 5000-10000 track specialists coming out of east Africa. Just a shortage of Komens, Gebs, Tergats and Kipchoges. And a shortage of brain cells in anyone who has failed to notice.
Every single year from 1995 to 2000, and again from 2003 to 2007, the world lead 5000 was under 12:50. In the years since, it has happened on only one occasion. Though six men broke 12:50 that day in Paris, none of them has managed it again or even come close, and even the winner was 9 seconds off the WR. This despite the disappearance of the 10,000 leaving the 5000 as the last diamond league distance event, and a crew of elites that push each other regularly instead of ducking each other.
These guys aren't marathon/HM types and most wouldn't make it on the roads. The 5000 is all they've got. Yet they're just a fleeting shadow of what once existed in that event. Somehow "talent" has skipped a generation.
Good post. The regression of the men's 5000 is troubling for me as well. Yes, tons of guys have moved to the roads but all of them? It doesn't seem likely. But who knows, it's possible.
Canova told me some of these sub 13 guys lose money. if you are good enough to run 13:00 and finish 8th in the DL, possibly losing money - maybe it makes much more sense to not even bother, go run 2:07 in the marathon and make $150,000 a year.
Who isn't disgusted by this? An honest, humble coach who operates safely within WADA guidelines doesn't find himself in this type of mess. But Salazar is consumed with getting away with as much as possible. That's his M.O., so I'm not totally surprised at the ProPublica expose. That said, the wilder stories in the report--drugs being secreted in a hollowed out book; urine being flown across the country to be specially screened--suggest an even darker character than we've met before. Who could possibly root for Galen Rupp or Matt Centrowitz after this?
Jesse4173 wrote:
Who isn't disgusted by this? An honest, humble coach who operates safely within WADA guidelines doesn't find himself in this type of mess. But Salazar is consumed with getting away with as much as possible. That's his M.O., so I'm not totally surprised at the ProPublica expose. That said, the wilder stories in the report--drugs being secreted in a hollowed out book; urine being flown across the country to be specially screened--suggest an even darker character than we've met before. Who could possibly root for Galen Rupp or Matt Centrowitz after this?
I could, if it turns out that they didn't actually violate any WADA rules.
prednisone wrote:
The Geomathematician wrote:All these anecdotes about the performance-enhancing effects of prednisone are hilarious.
Stay beautiful, my highly suggestible friends.
I'll take WADA and its ban on use of any amount of prednisone, over your NOP fanboy claim that "it doesn't work."
It seems is only banned during competition, it isn't regulated out of. Also it appeared one could get a TUE for in competition.
As a glucocorticosteroid, unauthorized or ad-hoc use of prednisolone during competition via oral, intravenous, intramuscular or rectal routes is banned under WADA anti-doping rules.[14] The drug may be used in competition with a TUE (Therapeutic Use Exemption), in compliance with WADA regulations. Local or topical use of prednisolone during competition as well as any use out of competition is not regulated.
this is an unfair accusation against rupp.
justin gatlin was caught cheating in the year 2006 with a world record of 9.77 seconds in the 100m.
now gatlin is 33 years old and ran even faster with 9.75 seconds in the diamond league in rome. usually athletes lose their explosiveness when they reach their mid-30's outside of their prime years. how would he be able to evade drug testing?
it's unfair to make a comparison of gatlin's performance with rupp's. this discussion is very one-sided against rupp. he could be innocent. no one else is defending him.
rupp's body structure is nothing special. he's an elite athlete that already has a very good proportion of slow twitch muscle for his specialty in the 10,000 m race. you can get this look naturally. you don't need testosterone to get that.
lazarus wrote:One should think that the very best cyclists in the world (Lance, Contador, Landis, Ulrich, etc.) would see very little benefit from EPO, as they too would have access to top notch training, altitude, etc. However, we know this is not the case.
the tour de france is nothing like a single marathon.
the tour de france takes place over more than 20 days with over 20 stages and cover over 2,000 miles. drugs are an advantage because there is no time for recovery, and your body starts losing blood cells. the rate of replacing those cells naturally is going to be worse than with drugs.
with the marathon you have plenty of time to rest and recover afterward.
i think posters should stop pestering canova about non-related bicycling questions. if you want to talk about bicycles, then you can go elsewhere.
As long as there is money to be made people will do anything to get it. Not so long ago professional runners were seen as lower class citizens. They were the rogues who trolled the pubs in London looking to make a few easy dollars in a footrace. The AAU banned these people as the term “professional” became synonymous with the proletarian, unwashed, vulgar lower-born individuals. It’s an easy leap to suggest a return to AAU rules for all and ban the professionals. But that just pushes it underground. Still, it made it harder to cheat and you had to be really good to get under-the-table, and appearance money. Perhaps it’s time to remove the money, at least as much as is reasonable.
