Tom “Tinman” Schwartz and Drew Hunter/Tinman Elite have parted ways

lonesome moon wrote:

Fisher has a degree from Stanford, probably an equally fat contract from Nike, and is just up in PC quietly hammering away.

I wouldn’t be surprised if Grant makes up the money from years he missed with time and team incentives by the end of next year.

You lost me with the bold part.

I'd be shocked if Grant makes 50% of what Drew makes and actually think it's less than 25%.

Many have heard that he purposely took less money from the BTC than he was offered from another group as he liked the BTC setup. That being said, even if he took more money from the other group, his contract would still be WAY less.

pupil3142 wrote:

thes wrote: Coaches have no magical training secrets. .

Bizarre, considering the industry and cult following. Does your throw away condemnation of coaches include all sports, or are they just worthless in running?

Can i set my self up as an internet coach, like JS?

The best coaches have years of expereince and a deep understanding of all the factors in play and their inter relation. From these they formulate, in working with the atlhletes and all the other facts, their indivudual tailored magical training secrets.

sometimes called; marginal gains.

It's not a bizarre take; it's actually what the best coaches will tell you.

Any coach who tells you there's one way to get fast and who doesn't give the athletes any say in their training is a bad coach.

Bonkers wrote:

The no swearing rule really reeks of a guy who's used to coaching high schoolers rather than adult pros. Additionally, it's a huge overreach on Tom's part because he had zero to do with TME's social media/youtube branding. Also, it's not his group. It's Drew's group and he was an employee. Tom's role was to provide training guidance, not to function as an authority figure off the track, and maybe he just didn't understand that dynamic.

Here’s the thing your point seems to have blinders on to - the image being created was being sold as ‘TINMAN’... Tom’s moniker for decades! The moniker he was letting the club borrow to get their feet off the ground and help generate revenue so they might have a chance to train and live as ‘professional’ runners when not actually so. When they started to misuse the name (in his view) he spoke up. Makes sense and he had every right to....in fact if it was rubbing him wrong and he didn’t speak up that would be a bigger problem.

Ace_of_Base wrote:

Jack Haley wrote:

Hard to fire him in person when he’s always off prioritizing other things...

You may not have had the life experience yet to understand that...there is no excuse. None. You can make them, but you are just shirking your responsibility and avoiding uncomfortable situations like a child does. Grow up Drew you make more money than 98% of adults, start acting like one.

+1

The truth is that Tinman didn't deserve a big salary. He was incapable of providing enough knowledge and experience to be full time. He is just a high school coach, he has no prior experience with pro runners and he's never run at a high level himself.

What extra benefit would Tinman be able to provide by being there 8 hours a day compared to 2 hours a day? Nothing! He would just annoy the team and go on political rants. They'd run worse because he would stress them out.

I admire Tinman's success at the HS and OTQ levels, but I remember reading this quote from 2015 and thinking that he probably wouldn't make it coaching pros: "Drew is probably equally talented to 15 other boys in America." Even though it appears to be true, I don't think that's enough for the athlete's somewhat fragile ego.

Canova has said some similar things about the talent levels of some of his athletes (Nicholas Kemboi and a lot of ~2:10 marathoners), but as far as I can tell it's always after they've retired. Try to imagine Jerry ever calling out Jager as only moderately talented (like Canova has) while crediting all of Jager's success to Jerry's coaching... never in a million years.

How were they “misusing his name”?

Also I don’t think Tammy will be back to posting on this thread under her known name now that she was outed for the IG burner shots.

[quote]Bonkers wrote:

I think it was pretty clear from the start that all the other athletes signed on to this group because of Drew, Boulder, and the general infrastructure available. Tom was Drew's high school coach and he was vouching for him early on. [quote]

I don’t think this is entirely true. Morgan Pearson was already training with Tinman when Drew moved to Boulder. Reed Fischer was the next to join them. “ In Schwartz, Reed found a coach who played to his strengths: consistency and slow and steady improvement. In Drew, he gained a like-minded running partner, one who wanted to win but who also ran for the sheer joy of running.” It seems like Tinman and Drew were equal attractions for Fischer who was set on move to Boulder. Tyler Mueller, Trevor Dunbar and Dan Nestor all represented Tinman Elite at 2017 Club Cross Country. It seems that Tinman Elite started by a group who were all in Boulder training under Tinman. The name was just a fun club name for Club XC. At first it seemed pretty organic which is probably why there weren’t lawyers involved.

https://www.runnersworld.com/runners-stories/a30188088/why-tinman-elite-thinks-theyre-the-next-great-pro-running-team/

I want to know where exactly did people expect Drew to be at age 23? Drew is basically the age of Redshirt Senior. Here is Drew at 23 vs other runners at 23:

Drew 1500 3:35.9, 3000M 7:39.8 5000M 13:17.5

Rupp 1500 3:39.1, 3000M 7:44.6, 5000M 13:18.1

Ritz 1500 3:43, 3000M 7:44.9, 5000M 13:16.6

Cheserek 1500c 3:34.8, 3000M 7:40.5, 5000M 13:18.7

I would say that Tom developed him pretty well in comparison. The worst thing that ever happened to Drew is that he broke the indoor Mile record and though he was miler. He doesn't have good pure speed. I bet he can't even break 52 in an open 400M. Rupp and Ritz were smart enough to realize early that there best chance was to go up in distance to 10,000M and Marathon. They used the lower distances to help them prepare for their primary events. Drew is a grinder not a real speed guy, which means he should have moved up in distance quickly. Webb could run a 47 and Ryun a 46 vs Hunter 52-53. Tom must be greatest Coach ever to get someone like that under 4.

Unfortunate situation on a lot of fronts, but can’t get over how much it feels like Drew lost the most in all of this. He had the money, family, and coaching support needed to reach his potential coming out of high school and now is trying to run an LLC, file trademarks, manage team dynamics, and most importantly make a decision about whether Tinman is the right coach for the group instead of if he’s the right coach for himself.

Glad the other TME guys get the chance to chase their dreams, but seems like the cost is we don’t get to see what Drew’s true potential could be.

Please list Rupp's 10k time at 23! thanks!

There is 0 comparison between the two.

Keep up!

Tinman wasn’t in to the swearing on TME social media accounts. That just wasn’t the kind of image he wanted to project and he let know them know since they were (and still are) using his name n’stuff.

kipudgy wrote:

under a bridge wrote:

How were they “misusing his name”?

Also I don’t think Tammy will be back to posting on this thread under her known name now that she was outed for the IG burner shots.

Keep up!

Tinman wasn’t in to the swearing on TME social media accounts. That just wasn’t the kind of image he wanted to project and he let know them know since they were (and still are) using his name n’stuff.

You misunderstood the question. How does their occasional swearing tarnish his online coaching business? I don’t buy the argument that someone associates Jordan Guzman swearing in an IG story to Tom Schwartz. It shows how out of his element Tom was to think otherwise.

Fool me once...

kipudgy wrote:

under a bridge wrote:

How were they “misusing his name”?

Also I don’t think Tammy will be back to posting on this thread under her known name now that she was outed for the IG burner shots.

Keep up!

Tinman wasn’t in to the swearing on TME social media accounts. That just wasn’t the kind of image he wanted to project and he let know them know since they were (and still are) using his name n’stuff.

Drew got the trademark, and overall has been more professional in all of this, at least in the public sphere.

Maybe they had some discussion on the language of the videos, but that was TME's show, not Tom's so other than urging them to stop and explaining why, it was not his call. And trolling their IG feed? That does not sound very professional.

SlowGrinder wrote:

I bet he can't even break 52 in an open 400M. ... Drew is a grinder not a real speed guy, which means he should have moved up in distance quickly. Webb could run a 47 and Ryun a 46 vs Hunter 52-53. Tom must be greatest Coach ever to get someone like that under 4.

I'm not going to argue that he's a "real speed guy," but he ran 1:48 in HS...he can definitely run faster than 52/53 for 400.

Another thing that comes to mind in this debacle...

Cultivating a strong coach/athlete relationship is an inherently easier/stronger bond than most. Shared sacrifice brings people together in a profound way. How many times have we seen athletes pour praise on their coaches and would do anything for them?

How is it with all this advantage that Tom could end up being generally disliked by the team? I know there are certainly examples of fallouts - Salazar for instance has had several detractors but even someone as sleazy (and banned) as him still has diehard, loyal pupils that I am not seeing in this case.

R-E-S-P-E-C-T wrote:

After reading this entire thread I have a greater respect for Hansons than ever before. They have been involved in this game for over 20 years. I remember when they started and the major Clubs were the Farm Team (gone) and the Indiana Invaders (gone). Survival with these young kids that feel like they have all the answers is obviously very difficult.

TME is further proof.

Definitely, absolutely. Ditto NAZ Elite, which was inspired by the Hansons and run by a Hansons alumnus. NAZ Elite shares as much as TME on SM yet you never see any of them flipping the bird or dropping profanity in their posts. Granted, NAZ Elite runs a tight ship and isn't all fratty so they're not exactly going for the same audience. Yet NAZ Elite was able to lock-in Hoke One One as a long-term sponsor fairly early on (in their first 2-3 years) and that's due in part to the demographic reach of their publicity, they didn't have people behaving in ways that turned off chunks of the core audience unnecessarily. TME? Not so much, and there are likely multiple reasons they haven't been able to ink a title sponsor for the group. NAZ Elite is also very willing to face the music and cut the fat in terms of people who prove themselves to not be willing contributors to their collective mission. They were set up that way, with contracts and with the head coach as the main leader yet with leadership buy-in from top athletes like Fauble, Smith, Bruce, Taylor, et al. THAT is a PRO set-up in our sport that grew from a start-up, it wasn't funded and organized by a corporation from the jump. TME is just lacking in comparison though it didn't have to be that way.

Challenge: Find 1 human on planet earth who has ran 13:17 or faster but could not break 52 in an open 400.