I fyou can get through the paywall, this is a brilliant piece of reporting on the trump personality cult. It's about the florida representative who voiced support for the impeachment inquiry.
he was almost instantly hounded out of congress for it. He announced his retirement soon after.
Soviet style conformity is required by the Rs here in support of their criminal.
eh nothing. Assad, one of the worst dictators on the planet, praising trump as his kind of president.
yeah trumpers, that's your man. When he's not being spanked by purn actors or grabbing women by their privates.
The other side of the coin is Trump does get re-elected.
After all he's done, if he gets acquitted by the Senate and re-elected by a strong enough base, can you imagine how he would govern without impunity in the subsequent four years?
Two Sides wrote:
The other side of the coin is Trump does get re-elected.
After all he's done, if he gets acquitted by the Senate and re-elected by a strong enough base, can you imagine how he would govern without impunity in the subsequent four years?
meh
he'd be the same
he's not constrained now and he won't be constrained then.
Suicide is far more likely.
Conundrum wrote:
jesseriley wrote:
I know everyone feels the process is slow & weak, but that can be an advantage longterm.
Hitler took advantage of a nation in transition, but we have the advantage of an unbroken tradition of constitutionalism.
Here's where I disagree with you and Flagpole. Sadly my view is much more cynical. Maybe Flagpole with his Christian upbringing will agree with you. You see the good in people and feel in the end people will do the right thing and justice will prevail.
I feel no matter what the evidence says, Republicans in the Senate will never convict. Hell, in the house they couldn't even vote for an inquiry. When Nixon was impeached only 4 Republicans voted against an inquiry.
Maybe you guys are right and there is more good in people and in the end they will do the ethical thing, I am not seeing it right now.
No president has ever had a brain washed base like Trump does. He has the power to destroy someone seeking reelection in the primaries. No Republican congressmen wants to put themselves in Trump's crosshairs so early in the process and their vote didn't matter, anyway.
When all the evidence is gathered, it could be much worse for Trump than it is now, resulting in tremendous pressure for Republican senators to the right thing and vote for removal. There could be enough talk by the water cooler for them to be confident that they won't be hung out to dry if they vote for removal.
Two Sides wrote:
The other side of the coin is Trump does get re-elected.
After all he's done, if he gets acquitted by the Senate and re-elected by a strong enough base, can you imagine how he would govern without impunity in the subsequent four years?
It all depends on how well trump and the GOP play prisoner's dilemma. That will determine everything. Dems are really underestimating the feverish support trump enjoys from the mouth breathing masses. They are so prone to manipulation that most truly believe trump is the savior and has been keeping true to his word. Every time he blasts off a lie in a tweet it's the first and often only "truth" his base hears. Don't believe me? This is exactly why the GOP is 100% behind him. What they are hearing from their constituents back home is that they aren't doing enough to protect trump. This is unfortunately very misinformed people having their say... democracy has been rigged with disinformation. The perception that he is achieving great things and that the deep state Dems are trying to just bring him down is greater than the truth at the moment... and I say that mostly about his base. How is the left motivating it's base at the moment to match that movement?
As it stands, GOP is playing a solid game of prisoner's dilemma because it's backed by the voters. They have gotten the go ahead to stand behind him no matter what happens. Surely even some Rs are in disbelief that they can gyrate that much and the people don't see through the circus, but it is working. A sitting president always has the upper hand in information and funding. Sure, trump has squandered his chances by being a complete moron but this is far from having tilted to the Dems' advantage.
What is it going to take? A relentless wave of corroborating evidence and a much more fired up Dem base that will reflect danger to him in the polls. As long as Rs continue to back him and cover for his lying and impeachable behavior they have the upper hand. Hate to say it but I think their strategy is solid.
SDSU Aztec wrote:
Conundrum wrote:
Here's where I disagree with you and Flagpole. Sadly my view is much more cynical. Maybe Flagpole with his Christian upbringing will agree with you. You see the good in people and feel in the end people will do the right thing and justice will prevail.
I feel no matter what the evidence says, Republicans in the Senate will never convict. Hell, in the house they couldn't even vote for an inquiry. When Nixon was impeached only 4 Republicans voted against an inquiry.
Maybe you guys are right and there is more good in people and in the end they will do the ethical thing, I am not seeing it right now.
No president has ever had a brain washed base like Trump does. He has the power to destroy someone seeking reelection in the primaries. No Republican congressmen wants to put themselves in Trump's crosshairs so early in the process and their vote didn't matter, anyway.
When all the evidence is gathered, it could be much worse for Trump than it is now, resulting in tremendous pressure for Republican senators to the right thing and vote for removal. There could be enough talk by the water cooler for them to be confident that they won't be hung out to dry if they vote for removal.
meh. the facts are already in.
The R line will be 'ok what Trump did is not appropriate but since the ukrainians got their money without doing the investigation this is not impeachable'
and they'll walk right by obstruction like it didn't exist, saying 'obstructing a crime that didn't exist is not impeachable'
it will be a party line vote in the senate, with the exception of manchin - he'll vote to acquit.
this this is done already - we're just dotting Is and crossing ts now.
Taxes & financials will show bribes.
agip wrote:
Two Sides wrote:
The other side of the coin is Trump does get re-elected.
After all he's done, if he gets acquitted by the Senate and re-elected by a strong enough base, can you imagine how he would govern without impunity in the subsequent four years?
meh
he'd be the same
he's not constrained now and he won't be constrained then.
He recently announced the G7 to be held at his property at Doral.
Then he backtracked. He is constrained by the potential emoluments article of impeachment.
Barr is holding his Christmas party at a Trump hotel in DC.
Officials staying overseas stay at Trump properties.
But they try to explain it away.
If Trump gets through this, everything will be done at his properties.
He may even use federal funding to purchase properties in his children's names.
Who knows what he will do for Putin.
I think there is some effort at constraint right now.
And he can be worse.
agip wrote:
SDSU Aztec wrote:
No president has ever had a brain washed base like Trump does. He has the power to destroy someone seeking reelection in the primaries. No Republican congressmen wants to put themselves in Trump's crosshairs so early in the process and their vote didn't matter, anyway.
When all the evidence is gathered, it could be much worse for Trump than it is now, resulting in tremendous pressure for Republican senators to the right thing and vote for removal. There could be enough talk by the water cooler for them to be confident that they won't be hung out to dry if they vote for removal.
meh. the facts are already in.
The R line will be 'ok what Trump did is not appropriate but since the ukrainians got their money without doing the investigation this is not impeachable'
and they'll walk right by obstruction like it didn't exist, saying 'obstructing a crime that didn't exist is not impeachable'
it will be a party line vote in the senate, with the exception of manchin - he'll vote to acquit.
this this is done already - we're just dotting Is and crossing ts now.
Romney and Collins will vote to convict.
I'm not so sure about Manchin. From what I've seen recently, he has been pretty supportive of impeachment (for a West Virginian).
Manchin is a Democrat.
If he doesn't vote to convict then 21 Republicans would be needed.
I think Murkowski of Alaska is another R Senator that would convict.
I wouldn't count out Marco Rubio depending o how things shake out.
Ted Cruz may follow if it trends.
The wildcard is Lindsey Graham.
He bends over backwards to defend Trump now but was a Never Trumper before Trump was the nominee.
If he sees a benefit to him, he'll flip and that could help others to follow.
Two Sides wrote:
The Republican party has come together and decided to be the party of Trump.
They are betting their future on it.
A long term mistake in my view.
If Trump is not re-elected in 2020, the Republican party will be in shambles.
I disagree. I think the party may suffer more with a Trump re-election. They will shift more to his ideals and Trump is very unique as a candidate and President and one very unlikely to be duplicated. So come 2024 what will the Repubs do? They'll be left scrambling as Trump's base deserts the party even simply in terms of showing up at the polls and/or dies off to any great degree. It will not be a simple case of returning to whatever normal is and could take a couple or three full election cycles to correct.
That is....
.....if the Democrats can get their act together. So far I've seen nothing from this band of merry inepts who will inspire enough people to vote for any one of them. A Dem victory in 2020 will likely be because of an anti-Trump vote than anything the Democrats who still have the likes of Bernie as too big a part of the party and even Warren who's not quite Bernie but just isn't a great candidate.
Fat hurts wrote:
Romney and Collins will vote to convict.
I'm not so sure about Manchin. From what I've seen recently, he has been pretty supportive of impeachment (for a West Virginian).
But why did they vote no for beginning the inquiry? Of course their vote wouldn't have mattered but it would have been symbolic of their position to do the right thing. The phone call transcript was clear enough to show at least behavior that should be investigated. I don't believe they can put up significant resistance on their own.
The Fokus wrote:
Two Sides wrote:
The Republican party has come together and decided to be the party of Trump.
They are betting their future on it.
A long term mistake in my view.
If Trump is not re-elected in 2020, the Republican party will be in shambles.
I disagree. I think the party may suffer more with a Trump re-election. They will shift more to his ideals and Trump is very unique as a candidate and President and one very unlikely to be duplicated. So come 2024 what will the Repubs do? They'll be left scrambling as Trump's base deserts the party even simply in terms of showing up at the polls and/or dies off to any great degree. It will not be a simple case of returning to whatever normal is and could take a couple or three full election cycles to correct.
That is....
.....if the Democrats can get their act together. So far I've seen nothing from this band of merry inepts who will inspire enough people to vote for any one of them. A Dem victory in 2020 will likely be because of an anti-Trump vote than anything the Democrats who still have the likes of Bernie as too big a part of the party and even Warren who's not quite Bernie but just isn't a great candidate.
agreed that the dems do not have a true national leader. That is a serious problem.
I think the Rs are in big trouble tho - when trump is out of office they won't have a national leader either. The personality cult has taken over the entire party so when he's gone...what is left? A bunch of minor leaguers not able to capture the hearts of the grass roots trumpers. So all they have left is a shambles of a party, headless. With no real policy other than trump reverence and anti-immigration.
And immigration is pretty popular in the US so that's not a great plan.
X-Runner wrote:
Manchin is a Democrat.
If he doesn't vote to convict then 21 Republicans would be needed.
I think Murkowski of Alaska is another R Senator that would convict.
I wouldn't count out Marco Rubio depending o how things shake out.
Ted Cruz may follow if it trends.
The wildcard is Lindsey Graham.
He bends over backwards to defend Trump now but was a Never Trumper before Trump was the nominee.
If he sees a benefit to him, he'll flip and that could help others to follow.
I repeat, all trumpers expect their elected officials to back the president. Graham would be one of the last ones to flip. I really don't think any of them will see a benefit to flipping, they need trump.
Trollminator wrote:
Fat hurts wrote:
Romney and Collins will vote to convict.
I'm not so sure about Manchin. From what I've seen recently, he has been pretty supportive of impeachment (for a West Virginian).
But why did they vote no for beginning the inquiry? Of course their vote wouldn't have mattered but it would have been symbolic of their position to do the right thing. The phone call transcript was clear enough to show at least behavior that should be investigated. I don't believe they can put up significant resistance on their own.
Uh, because the are senators?
Romney and Collins are senators.
They didn't have a vote for the inquiry.
Justin Amash voted in favor of the inquiry and he was elected as a Republican.
He has since left the party and become an Independent.
Trollminator wrote:
I repeat, all trumpers expect their elected officials to back the president. Graham would be one of the last ones to flip. I really don't think any of them will see a benefit to flipping, they need trump.
This is how Graham used to feel about Trump.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPOOXp3S2UI