.I wouldn't call him even if I did have his number. He is doing a different kind of running now.
.I wouldn't call him even if I did have his number. He is doing a different kind of running now.
Those Ethiopians know a thing or two about training their elastic energy return.
What do you know about it?
Jon Orange wrote:
Ima help you out wrote:You were lazy so progress was slower. You also stopped improving.
I wasn't lazy. That was a joke. Evidently you missed that.
I improved up to age 45. That had nothing to do with improved oxygen delivery. My VO2 max probably peaked more than 20 years earlier.
I improved my running skill. Something you don't understand.
No, you were lazy. You've said it numerous times. Your mileage tells us that.
You don't know about your VO2 max unless you had it tested. Did you ever?
That's how Science works.
Jon Orange wrote:
.I wouldn't call him even if I did have his number. He is doing a different kind of running now.
So you don't actually know the author?
Jon Orange wrote:
http://sportsscientists.com/2007/12/running-economy-part-i/Those Ethiopians know a thing or two about training their elastic energy return.
What do you know about it?
I know that it's one small part of the big puzzle, just like your source paper mentions.
I don't have Haile Gebreselassie's number. Try to keep up.
Ima help you out wrote:
Jon Orange wrote:http://sportsscientists.com/2007/12/running-economy-part-i/Those Ethiopians know a thing or two about training their elastic energy return.
What do you know about it?
I know that it's one small part of the big puzzle, just like your source paper mentions.
No, it's a huge part. I've explained why. It's the only reason for my improvement from 1997 to 2008.
And in 1997 to 99 I was racing against one of the authors. We were very close several races.
Jon Orange wrote:
Ima help you out wrote:I know that it's one small part of the big puzzle, just like your source paper mentions.
No, it's a huge part. I've explained why. It's the only reason for my improvement from 1997 to 2008.
And in 1997 to 99 I was racing against one of the authors. We were very close several races.
You believe but have no proof. with no actual lab measurements.
BTW from your last "source"
"research studies support that running economy improves with higher volume, slower running. So longer and slower distance training is more effective as a means to improve economy. The reasons for this include the increase in mitochondria, which means more effective use of oxygen by muscle."
You really need to read those papers you're linking to.
We'll leave out the prediction that Tadesse will be the next record holder in the Marathon due to his already awesome efficiency.
The Tadesse study was misinformation. The mitochondria increase is misinformation. Show me real evdidence and not the old muscle biopsy data, which is unreliable.
And consider this:
Here is another calcualation with Daniels' time v intensity graph which is the one I originally alluded to early in this thread, the second graph which is on page 3:
http://s3.amazonaws.com/zanran...959967.pdf
Comparing a 2.05 runner to a 2.15 runner who is genetically identical (for the purpose of comparing like with like with regards to genetics v training)
79.5% VO2 max for a 2.15 race but only 80% for a 2.05 hour race.
If we suppose they are identical twins, one a super elite runner and the other having less experience and training, sub elite. They both have the same absolute VO2 max (as per Daniels' observations on genetics and training of oxygen uptake)
If both runners have the same absolute VO2 max say 5 liters/minute then:
2.15 runner uses 5 x .795 = 3.975 liters x 135 = 536.6 liters oxygen
2.05 runner uses 5x .80 = 4.0 liters x 125 = 500 liters oxygen
The difference in intensity is minimal. The slower runner uses more fats and more carbs, as we all do when we run for longer periods.
So my point still stands:
ELITE RUNNERS USE LESS OXYGEN, GLYCOGEN AND FATS TO RACE FASTER.
Really, it's not hard to figure this stuff out, it's not quantum mechanics. The only point on which we can possibly disagree is that of relative oxygen uptkake versus relative economy. I agree with Daniels on these points. Other physiologists agree with Daniels to
So you are linking to studies that DON'T support your view?
You can stop endlessly repeating that one above.
So Tadesse has out of this world economy and yet he can't run a good Marathon?
He needs to do more slow hill running and bounding to become even more mechanically efficient or maybe he needs to develop "other" types of efficiency?
Which is it?
So you are ignoring my points?
Don't you realize that many young runners have a high VO2 max which will not increase with training. But their times will come down over several years?
The Efficiency Expert wrote:
So Tadesse has out of this world economy?
No. The measurement was obviously flawed. That's the problem with Ross Tuckers's blog, it has some very good info and some very bad info.
Jon Orange wrote:
So you are ignoring my points?
Don't you realize that many young runners have a high VO2 max which will not increase with training. But their times will come down over several years?
Why do you keep providing boatloads of evidence for other gains in your attempt to narrow it down to one thing?
We improve because of all of those other gains, particularly what the Oxygen uptake gets devoted to.
Training changes muscle fiber type and percentages. Or do you not believe that either?
So how much do you think that elastic energy return can improve efficiency/economy over the course of a race?
1, Not much?
2, A little?
3, A lot?
Jon Orange wrote:
The Efficiency Expert wrote:So Tadesse has out of this world economy?
No. The measurement was obviously flawed. That's the problem with Ross Tuckers's blog, it has some very good info and some very bad info.
So you linked to it as a flawed example? Everything that counters your claim must be wrong?
Are you really trying to ride that Daniels chart to the bitter end?
Jon Orange wrote:
So how much do you think that elastic energy return can improve efficiency/economy over the course of a race?
1, Not much?
2, A little?
3, A lot?
What's the difference between not much and a little?
Gebrselassie had multiple Achilles surgeries and apparently severely tore a calf muscle in a one hour attempt. Despite his springs being shot he continued to improve his Marathon.
How was this possible?
Jon Orange wrote:
I don't have Haile Gebreselassie's number. Try to keep up.
I'm too stupid to keep up.
Ima help you out wrote:
Jon Orange wrote:I don't have Haile Gebreselassie's number. Try to keep up.
I'm too stupid to keep up.
The handle stealing is old. Stop it.