Tom “Tinman” Schwartz and Drew Hunter/Tinman Elite have parted ways

After reading this entire thread I have a greater respect for Hansons than ever before. They have been involved in this game for over 20 years. I remember when they started and the major Clubs were the Farm Team (gone) and the Indiana Invaders (gone). Survival with these young kids that feel like they have all the answers is obviously very difficult.

TME is further proof.

Yes, kudos to those guys. More stable funding source, plus obvious long-term commitment.

lonesome moon wrote:

The difference between how the two families handled their business couldn’t be more stark — Hunter skipped college, signed a contract of debatable size, and was allowed to do whatever he wanted by his mom and his sponsor.

Fisher has a degree from Stanford, probably an equally fat contract from Nike, and is just up in PC quietly hammering away.

I wouldn’t be surprised if Grant makes up the money from years he missed with time and team incentives by the end of next year..

This is actually a major issue in our sport. Grant was offered some good contracts coming out of college, but wouldn’t have a place to go (read: the other shoe companies) and decided to take a huge pay cut to go to Jerry. He’s paid much less than the “starting teachers salary” that Tinman’s wife alludes to.

I’m sure there are other benefits to being there- maybe some help with lodging, travel, altitude camps, etc. but this is a situation where you can be the 24 year old who signed for long term guaranteed money (at 19) or the 25 year old who waited, went to the best school, won an ncaa title and now is in the best training environment.... and makes peanuts.

Kind of no win situation.

I guess that’s not entirely true because he was offered Drew type of annual money, just not long term like Drew.

Maybe the takeaway is that running sucks as a profession. Only 1% make any money.

At least an upgrade in coaching? From a high school coach (Tinman) to a college coach (Leslie)?

R-E-S-P-E-C-T wrote:

After reading this entire thread I have a greater respect for Hansons than ever before. They have been involved in this game for over 20 years. I remember when they started and the major Clubs were the Farm Team (gone) and the Indiana Invaders (gone). Survival with these young kids that feel like they have all the answers is obviously very difficult.

TME is further proof.

I respect the Hansons a ton but where is the proof that the athletes think they have all the answers? & TME is far from done. The athletes are driving revenue & they will be fine whether they keep the name or rebrand.

I think TME was very professional in their statement. They're allowed to part ways with a coach. Given the family response & airing grievances on a message board, this looks like the right decision for the group. I reread the laundry list of items coming from Schwartz & his wife. They sound like disgruntled employees willing to fire shot after shot no matter how irrational any of it might be. It's not really sympathetic. It comes across as bitter and petty. They're not willing to own anything and are just going to hold the position that they were wronged. They certainly seem to be the ones acting in poor taste right now.

If they were smart, they would have recognized that the group brought a lot of attention their way. If they exited professionally, clients would be lining up. That might still happen but I think they're overvaluing how many people knew Schwartz as "Tinman" & how the runners popularized the name over the last few years. They're going to continue to make money coaching because of their elevated popularity that they really had little to do with.

You don't want to run for Schwartz because of CV intervals. You want to run for Schwartz because Drew Hunter is cool, the logo for TME is cool, you watched workout videos on YouTube & want to grind like the athletes, etc.

First of all, I can’t imagine anyone wanting to run for the reasons you listed. 2nd of all it’s easy to see why TS is so upset - TME cut him off while retaining HIS name which was actually the key selling point of the brand. He was letting them ‘borrow’ it without compensation to help get the business off the ground. Now their position seems to be it’s THEIR name although we all know it’s not. So to summarize: 1)TME stabbed Tinman in the back despite his selfless treatment towards them. 2) TME has continued to steal from Tinman after the fact by sustained use of Timman’s name as a way to sell service/product.

I think you're overvaluing the effect coaching TME had on Schwartz. People (mostly high schoolers) want to run for him because he has a proven track record of success in that demographic. A 4:30 miler sees Drew Hunter, Rheinhart Harrison, Aidan Puffer etc... and figures Tinman coaching is the way for him to run 4:15. Athletes compare themselves to their peers. The TME brand is separate, and judging from their IG comments recently, they are losing popularity fast.

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

OK, but who is pushing the racism/political angle? That certainly is not coming from Tinman or his wife.

Why did my first post calling this stupid comment out get deleted?

Why would Tinman or his wife admit to his political ramblings or racist comments?

When you are 24 years old and you make big boy money you have to make big boy decisions. Drew’s money made this team, his relationship with Tom for the last 8 years had him as the coach. You have to fire him, in person. Just absolutely pathetic that this didn’t occur.

Good summation here. Kind of the inmates running the prison and maybe.......maybe......1 or 2 have a chance at the Olympics? What happens when one these clowns leaves, will they still have a right to any of the $$ being generated? More content than quality.

Ace_of_Base wrote:

When you are 24 years old and you make big boy money you have to make big boy decisions. Drew’s money made this team, his relationship with Tom for the last 8 years had him as the coach. You have to fire him, in person. Just absolutely pathetic that this didn’t occur.

It certainly implies a lack of respect. For me, this is why the speculation of a "political angle" is a reasonable question. We've all experienced cordial relationships turning toxic over the past 4+ years. Look at how Ghost of Igloo has gone on tilt since politics were first mentioned. All of rules of common courtesy seem to go out the window between people who feel love or disdain for Trump/liberals/SJWs/etc.

I think we all know Cory Leslie is the slimeball ‘friend’

Can ANYONE tell me WHO HAS CORY LESLIE COACHED?!!

I mean seriously. WHO

Ace_of_Base wrote:

When you are 24 years old and you make big boy money you have to make big boy decisions. Drew’s money made this team, his relationship with Tom for the last 8 years had him as the coach. You have to fire him, in person. Just absolutely pathetic that this didn’t occur.

That's between TME and TS, but maybe the relationship was pretty far gone by then.

The model for this situation was nuanced if not upside down. As others have indicated, usually there is a coach who either builds a following or is hired by a sponsor/company or works with a sponsor, saying they have athletes XYZ and the sponsor/company says okay here is a stipend and facilities, etc. So think Hansons, Hoka, NOP, BTC.

In case of TME time they had a very young athlete-18 or 19 at the time--with a lot of potential, and off to college. I think he was on his own for a year or two, and TME emerged in late 2017 as slapped together team for USATF Club Cross Country, which they won. Over the next year they tried to get additional sponsorship from Adidas--this is a fact--(and likely others). But they did not secure a large sponsorship, so the TME trademark and marketing emerged from that void. That's when they could have/maybe should have worked out a deal with TS--so who knows what happened 2-3 years ago--but he's not part of the LLC. It's Drew's.

Nevertheless, for a few years they had a program and coaching agreement. For reasons discussed many times over on this thread, things were not working out, so they moved on. Yes, an in-person (or socially distanced in these times, like a Zoom call) parting would have been better, plus a quick announcement, and removing the association from the social media accounts would have looked more professional, and at least here in this bubble (letsrun) somewhat less controversial. However, you can also understand the desire to separate ways quietly, and focus on having the runners qualify or prepare for OTs without scrutiny (from online trolls no doubt) and controversy.

Ace_of_Base wrote:

When you are 24 years old and you make big boy money you have to make big boy decisions. Drew’s money made this team, his relationship with Tom for the last 8 years had him as the coach. You have to fire him, in person. Just absolutely pathetic that this didn’t occur.

Dont disagree here, but keeping in mind that we’ve only heard one half of the story. Maybe their relationship was so far gone already that it didn’t even matter.

Regardless, as the ring leader and the one with the prior and original relationship, he should have done SOMETHING I guess. But again, maybe he tried and was pushed away. We don’t know the full details.

Ace_of_Base wrote:

When you are 24 years old and you make big boy money you have to make big boy decisions. Drew’s money made this team, his relationship with Tom for the last 8 years had him as the coach. You have to fire him, in person. Just absolutely pathetic that this didn’t occur.

Hard to fire him in person when he’s always off prioritizing other things...

The Dirty Duck wrote:

Ace_of_Base wrote:

When you are 24 years old and you make big boy money you have to make big boy decisions. Drew’s money made this team, his relationship with Tom for the last 8 years had him as the coach. You have to fire him, in person. Just absolutely pathetic that this didn’t occur.

It certainly implies a lack of respect. For me, this is why the speculation of a "political angle" is a reasonable question. We've all experienced cordial relationships turning toxic over the past 4+ years. Look at how Ghost of Igloo has gone on tilt since politics were first mentioned. All of rules of common courtesy seem to go out the window between people who feel love or disdain for Trump/liberals/SJWs/etc.

If Tom is really talking about politics to the detriment of his real life relationships that is really sad and pathetic as well. Following politics is a cancer, its a waste of time, its designed to create fractions, dissent, and get people worked up and consuming more of this trash. If anything about the politics is true Tom needs to go cold turkey and get this crap out of his life.

However, that is no excuse for Drew. There is no excuse for not dismissing your long time coach in person, especially since you foot 95% of his fees (per this thread). It makes Drew sound like an immature child that needs his mother to talk to adults for him, I have lost all respect for this guy.

Jack Haley wrote:

Ace_of_Base wrote:

When you are 24 years old and you make big boy money you have to make big boy decisions. Drew’s money made this team, his relationship with Tom for the last 8 years had him as the coach. You have to fire him, in person. Just absolutely pathetic that this didn’t occur.

Hard to fire him in person when he’s always off prioritizing other things...

You may not have had the life experience yet to understand that...there is no excuse. None. You can make them, but you are just shirking your responsibility and avoiding uncomfortable situations like a child does. Grow up Drew you make more money than 98% of adults, start acting like one.

Leslie is NOT an upgrade. Very little real experience being the guy.