El Guerrouj 2k WR - Incredible 3:49 Mile pace

Tom Cochrane wrote:

and if you want to get more bang for your buck go there and dope. It's what all the cool kids are doing.

I would advise against it if you are subject to WADA.

rekrunner wrote:

Tom Cochrane wrote:

and if you want to get more bang for your buck go there and dope. It's what all the cool kids are doing.

I would advise against it if you are subject to WADA.

Yes, Ramzi and Sumgong et al were aware of this.

High-Octane Dopers wrote:

Realize rekrunner there's a lot of O2-vector doping going on in endurance sports.

I don't doubt that.

High-Octane Dopers wrote:

I imagine we don't know the half of it, and probably never will.

Completely agree.

Tom Cochrane wrote:

And EPO raises the limit better than altitude does.

Do you have any references that explores this in more detail, with respect to resulting performance?

rekrunner wrote:

Tom Cochrane wrote:

And EPO raises the limit better than altitude does.

Do you have any references that explores this in more detail, with respect to resulting performance?

I just did.

Plus Ramzi, Boulami Kiptum, Sumgong etc. for elite samples.

Right. That's what I expected.

how does that work? wrote:

GBohannon wrote:

If you can’t understand the point that was being made, you probably shouldn’t be on these boards.

Let me clarify - due to (alleged) EPO use, El G still seemed fresh at the conclusion of the race. He was not gasping for air as one might expect (perhaps) because his blood already had all of the oxygen it needed.

Isn't EPO supposed to increase oxygen uptake?

If his oxygen uptake was more than normal, how come he was breathing less?

To put an end to this "wasnt even breathing hard so must be doping" nonsense once and for all.

In a TT effort which is 100%, the athlete will still go through the same physiological processes whether doped or undoped. I.e he will have an Oxygen debt or EPOC as its known today. HR and Respiration rates will still be almost identical, the only difference is that they will be travelling faster at those given thresholds due to higher oxygen availability. It will not change breathing rate or HR as the margins of Time x effort= intensity will remain very close to what they are whether doped or undoped.

It is true that the more aerobically developed an Athlete is, the faster they recover and repay the Oxygen debt after 100% TT efforts but this is not instantaneous, it takes minutes and when it comes to the very small margins in the grander scale of things, it would not be something noticeable to the naked eye.

The athlete does not breathe more or less, they are simply more efficient with each breath. that they can create more energy because of extra available oxygen. This is not a comparison between a 6 minute miler and a 3:45 miler. When talking about a guy doping vs the same guy not doping, you might be talking about a 3:43 guy vs a 3:46 guy. The differences are minuscule but minuscule differences make a big impact at that level, you will not pick up on them with your eye when comparing breathing patterns or HR between a doped TT and an undoped TT. They are still running at the same relevant effort, the doped guy is just travelling faster.

That's just nonsense. How does EPO doping circumvent thermoregulation?

Basic physiology question. How come not one person in all of this endless debate can even understand the question? But you think you have some kind of superior knowledge?

The athlete does not breathe more or less, they are simply more efficient with each breath. that they can create more energy because of extra available oxygen. (Quote)

The essential point I was effectively making 30 pages ago. But it will not penetrate the denial granite of rekrunner and Jon Orange. Citations!

We get that you don't understand the question. Or anything.

how does that work? wrote:

That's just nonsense. How does EPO doping circumvent thermoregulation?

Basic physiology question. How come not one person in all of this endless debate can even understand the question? But you think you have some kind of superior knowledge?

Only one person doesn't understand it.

Armstronglivs wrote:

The athlete does not breathe more or less, they are simply more efficient with each breath. that they can create more energy because of extra available oxygen. (Quote)

The essential point I was effectively making 30 pages ago. But it will not penetrate the denial granite of rekrunner and Jon Orange. Citations!

You said "scarcely breathing" -- doesn't "scarcely" mean "less"?

Efficiency in an exercise setting usually means same performance with less oxygen -- while you said more oxygen.

I got your point every time -- the question was whether it was just yours.

rekrunner wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

The athlete does not breathe more or less, they are simply more efficient with each breath. that they can create more energy because of extra available oxygen. (Quote)

The essential point I was effectively making 30 pages ago. But it will not penetrate the denial granite of rekrunner and Jon Orange. Citations!

You said "scarcely breathing" -- doesn't "scarcely" mean "less"?

Efficiency in an exercise setting usually means same performance with less oxygen -- while you said more oxygen.

I got your point every time -- the question was whether it was just yours.

It's not the same performance. It's a faster one. Like a WR

rekrunner wrote:

You said "scarcely breathing" -- doesn't "scarcely" mean "less"?

.

Not necessarily. Especially if one uses your own word flexibility.

rekrunner wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

The athlete does not breathe more or less, they are simply more efficient with each breath. that they can create more energy because of extra available oxygen. (Quote)

The essential point I was effectively making 30 pages ago. But it will not penetrate the denial granite of rekrunner and Jon Orange. Citations!

You said "scarcely breathing" -- doesn't "scarcely" mean "less"?

Efficiency in an exercise setting usually means same performance with less oxygen -- while you said more oxygen.

I got your point every time -- the question was whether it was just yours.

Either you are an A grade moron or just determined to be a f*ckwit. Stupid word games always. "Scarcely breathing" does not mean "less"; it simply conveys economy of effort, which is what heightened aerobic capacity can enable. The point above makes it clear that more oxygen is available for each breath - as I indicated pages ago - and as the commenter above says, there is "extra oxygen". You comprehend nothing, and evade everything.

The stupidity of rekrunner and Jon Orange is easily demonstrated. If improved aerobic fitness required an athlete to breath more to use their available oxygen we would see that in the fittest athletes - or those who doped - that they would be gasping like a beached fish in order to utilise their increased oxygen in the blood stream. In other words, there is no increased efficiency in their oxygen utilization. Yet we see the gasping for air in the aerobically unfit. Hence, according to the reasoning above, an athlete like El G could not have been amongst the fittest of runners because there is no noticeable increase in his rate of breathing during (or after) the race - there is no noticeable panting or gasping. Alternatively, it suggests that as he wasn't obviously digging in deeper to access more oxygen that at either 3.26 for the 1500 or 4.44 for the 2k he was not running to his limits. Just out for a stroll.

Armstronglivs wrote:

Either you are an A grade moron or just determined to be a f*ckwit. Stupid word games always. "Scarcely breathing" does not mean "less"; it simply conveys economy of effort, which is what heightened aerobic capacity can enable. The point above makes it clear that more oxygen is available for each breath - as I indicated pages ago - and as the commenter above says, there is "extra oxygen". You comprehend nothing, and evade everything.

You present another false dichotomy.

Another option is that you are a grade F moron.

I'll just note here that "Economy of effort" in an exercise setting also means greater speeds for the same oxygen.

Earlier you seemed to argue hard for a concession that it is possible El G's performance was enhanced by EPO -- by the same token it is possible that El G's performance, and any heightened aerobic capacity that leads to effortless breathing, were achieved cleanly, on training and talent alone. A few years back, 43% of letsrunners believed in this possibility.

You also seem obsessed with any perceptioin of inabilty to comprehend, as if that is one of your innermost fears, and helps how you view the outside world.

Although they are easy to understand, like any cartoon targeted for children recounted by children, I'm not all that interested in the non-expert opinions and conclusions of anonymous posters, whether it is about economy and efficency and less oxygen versus more oxygen, or assessments of posters intelligence.

It becomes much more interesting to me if these opinions and conclusions are shared by experts in the field, and even more interesting if these experts have already presented the data and observations to back it up.

High-Octane Dopers wrote:

Wasn't Jama Aden and his athletes at an altitude training camp at Sabadell, Spain (2016) when the hotel was raided and a bunch of EPO was confiscated? So, the question is that if altitude increases your RBCs, then what was the EPO going to be used for?

This is a question best directed at the Saudi physio-therapist -- I haven't seen any answer yet.

Maybe it was not intended for use by Jama Aden's athletes.

Remember not one single athlete tested positive at the Sabadell raid.

Apparently it is easier to demonstrate this than to demonstrate the opinions and conclusions and data and observations of experts in the field.

We already talked about your misuse of the word "efficiency".

Now you are mis-using oxygen-utiltization. Your description of higher aerobic capacity, higher RBC count, higher extraction of oxygen from the lungs, deals with capacity and delivery, not utiliization.

Don't take my word for it -- here are the words from an endurance expert, Stephen Seiler: