Pose = crazy???

Asterix,

At this point all you can do is try to twist and distort my words....wait thats all you've been doing from the beginnning my bad! I am getting a kick out of your devotion to high school physics. I picture you running around the track with a book in hand. As always have wonderful day!

He is "devoted" to high school physics because in the POSE articles there are physical descriptions that just aren't true. Reasons why are explained by simple classical mechanics. POSE may be a fine method, and that would be great. However, to be taken seriously, some of these flaws need to be ironed out.

I too am a stubborn person[quote]

Obvious from the continued insults spanning 37 pages.

[quote]and I hate letting an argument go, especially when the facts are 100% on my side{/quote]

"facts" in your case amount to nothing more than your refusal to listen to anyone except yourself.

[quote]everyone with a shred of intelligence and common sense knows you are right

So you define people who are intelligent purely by whether they agree with you. Wow, wish I had thought of that the day I was born, then my view of the world would be much simpler.

To actually learn something you have to be open-minded. Pose is about:

(1) A set of perceptions that help you run better, PROVIDED you practice the drills for long enough to get improvement. For many people, that can take months. For the closed-minded and unwilling to put in effort instead of arguing, that can be an eternity. Arguing about physics will not get you any closer to understanding if following the method will help you individually. If you refuse to want to try this method, then fine, you may achieve greatness on your own, but you will never know if you could have been even better by applying this method after continued focus on learning and deliberate practice.

As shown by the posts on the Pose forum, having a theoretical debate and then going out one weekend or even a couple weeks and trying to simulate what they think they were being told by the Pose instructions is nowhere near adequate to begin to realize the efficiency or speed improvements on an individual level. For most people who are trained runners, they actually initially experience a DECREASE in running economy and speed, until they have adapted several months of drills and short runs to reinforce the new patterning motions and timing. Anyone who can argue like an armchair general without putting in the time of training will never know to what extent Pose might actually improve their running, and to state otherwise is tantamount to an adolescent stating, "College will never benefit me because look at all the dumb-@ss people I hate that went to college, and I will surround myself with people who didn't go to college and agree with me because we are right and we are smarter." To those people I say, fine, do your own thing, ignorance is bliss!!!

(2) A set of biomechanical motions subdividing the running motion into certain distinct phases and certain defined elements of form, balance, and timing of muscle contractions within those phases.

(3) The originator of Pose and trained certified coaches do not claim that:

(a) any individual element or process in running was invented by the Pose originator;

(b) no one can achieve peak performance by any other method besides Pose;

(c) everyone else must run completely differently as evidenced by every phase of running motion unless they were specifically trained and consciously practice Pose.

The last 3 points are the root of much of the resentment on this thread and other related threads. Pose is humble enough to admit that high-achievement runners may exhibit one or more elements in common with Pose, but that doesn't imply they are running Pose style. Some great runners have form and style that differs signficantly. There is more than one way to skin a cat. However, you will never absolutely answer the question if Pose training might further increase SOME of these great runners to an even HIGHER LEVEL of achievement; you can apply all the rhetoric and theory you want, but truth be told, pure discussions will never answer that question.

So what I am suggesting is, if you are tempted by the water, try it out, but don't assume after swimming without lessons or swimming with one lesson that you know everything there is to know about swimming and cannot benefit further by other methods of learning. For example, clinics that teach certain elements of swimming can help an athlete improve, even if he previously had achieved several medals. Tiger Woods has "reinvented" his swing several times on the journey to becoming an even better golfer, even though he could have instead just rested on his laurels and said, "I am the greatest golfer in the world, how can you tell me something that would make me even better?."

What pose is NOT about is

Any form of objective verification that practicing these methods have a clear measurable positive effect on running. No numbers regarding efficiency actually MEASURED somewhere in a lab. Oh wait, I take that back, there is is a measured evidence -- linked elsewhere on this thread which Dr Romanov himself performed and signed off on -- which shows efficiency DECREASES.

Most notably Pose is not about any regard whatsoever for the clear and accepted language of physics.

Your silly attempt to boil all this down to a weak-kneed "it's all about perception" mantra contradicts statements we've seen on this very thread from the biggest pose adherents on this board.

Bob,

Please show some examples of the articles that JUST AREN'T TRUE?

That is exactly why this debate is going on. I think the Poser community should pull together a little funding and try to publish some stats on their runners who were (1) previously experienced high-achievers and who had trained at maximal effort and (2) who got even better after a certain number of months/years practice with Pose, as measured by P.R.'s before and afterwards. I'm sure the data exist, but once people achieve an improvement, they think of it as a personal achievement to tell others about, not as a group or method achievement that can be summarized and tabulated. Tell Dr. Romanov.

Another good point. A lab needs to re-study the above types of experienced and trained atheletes BEFORE starting, then followup months to years later using the same techniques for measuring efficiency. Really long term followups are harder to arrange, similar to medical studies, the longer the followup, the harder it is to locate participants and the more money required for the study. Money is always an issue. Since the American Triathlon Association has endorsed Pose, perhaps they could cooperatively help to assist in funding. Doing the work of training people versus getting the work published are two different activities, one generates revenue directly, the other at best only indirectly much later down the road.

I would agree that the physical explanation is a hodge-podge of perceptions versus physics discussions. As was remarked by an earlier poster, there just aren't any top-notch running coaches of any persuasion, let alone just Pose coaches, who are as gifted at explaining and interpreting applyied physics as they are at teaching running.

More insults, tends to reduce my respect for your opinions. Better to learn to debate the facts rather than learn more adjectives to ridicule. More people will take you seriously.

Jhuffman wrote:

Please show some examples of the articles that JUST AREN'T TRUE?

Please review the thread before you make the same tired arguments. The problematic POSE site was referenced and cited many times already.

"Don't push off":

Gravity as the primary source of running speed:

Evidence POSE is LESS efficient:

Asterix,

First, your name is not BOB.

Second, I am not argueing.

Third, if you would like to test out your fast technique against the Pose Method technique, we can set up a race between you and I. I'll even let you pick the distance. As always good talkin with ya!

Asterix,

And I'll even allow you to run with your HIGH SCHOOL PHYSICS book.

Jhuffman wrote:

First, your name is not BOB.

But the articles cited on the POSE site say what they say. What they say has been demonstrated to be wrong.

Second, I am not argueing.

You say one thing. Numerous posts are made explaining how you are wrong and incorrect. You come back with various tactics of 'it is really about perception' or 'that is not what I meant' or 'you need to give POSE a chance', none of which really address the flaws pointed out in your original statements. Most would say that constitutes arguing.

Third, if you would like to test out your fast technique against the Pose Method technique, we can set up a race between you and I. I'll even let you pick the distance.

Sounds very playgroundish. "My dad can beat up your dad." Does it change the fact my dad may be an unemployed alcoholic? Does it make either of us a better person? Does it do anything to discerning whether the statements POSE makes are fundamentally wrong?

What about you against any one of hundreds of other non-POSErs? Geb? Bekele? Ritz? Webb?

J Huffman or other Pose advocates...simple question. How do you explain the study coauthored by the creator of pose that showed that oxygen consumption INCREASED after converting to the pose method. This study suggests (I did not say proves) that for the runners studied, running efficiency decreased after conversion to the Pose method. Are the Pose gurus doing another study to try to show that pose actually does improve efficiency?

I am not a coach or expert, but I experienced the same thing in the first 3 months.

I had the luxury of 28 years to optimize my heel-strike running technique. I could run in my sleep the O2 consumption was so low.

Upon converting to Pose, I found the motions ackward and the explanations in writing didn't give me enough to go on to enable doing the movements properly. What is more critical is that initially my hamstrings, calves, and achilles had not developed sufficiently for the new method and the speed of the triggering of the hamstring and the timing of this effort was way off to achieve maximum economy or minimum effort. I was literally breathing at the rate that in the old days would equate to a pace 1 minute per mile faster.

I never went to a clinic, but had a video analyzed. The feedback combined with doing the drills over 4 months allowed my body to finally "get it". At that point my breathing at any given pace became more consistent with past years performance using heel-striking running. I still don't have that top speed with Pose without my form breaking down, but speeds up to within 45 seconds per mile of my 10 mile tempo pace now feel a little more efficient than they used to be, despite fewer miles per week of training.

So I can understand from a personal level why this happens.

Asterix, make my day. Let's see you or any other takers analyze Jeremy's running form. I think Jeremy's ran this 800 in 1:54?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2247423061285311512

Taking this task will really help with your credibility (or ruin it). Let's hear how Jeremy is really running from the those that really understand how to run.

Good luck!

Dr Romanov is making money off of this stuff and he doesn't even have any data that prove it works? Isn't that putting the cart before the horse?

People improve off simple training too. So not only do we need to show that the runners improved, we need to show that it was due to POSE. It is not enough to show us that some runner improved their PR. POSE is claiming that the method of running makes them more efficient. So don't you think they ought to prove that it does.

But since they have no measured data to support the notion the "teaching" they are doing has any positive effect on efficiency, the burden is upon them to at least have some command of the language they are using to describe it.

Fortunately, I could not care less about your respect for my opinions.

The facts have been debated ad nauseum. Next time, try going back and actually READING THE THREAD before posting a point that contradicts what virtually every pose adherent quoted has said. (That is, if you want to be "taken seriously".). Until you do, your post is silly and weak-kneed. Yes, those terms are pejorative. They are also accurate.

You came in here on page 37 telling us "it's all about perception" when this entire thread has been a back and forth with incredibly disingenuous adherents who claim that it is NOT about perceptions but about physics. Whenever they are called on their horrendous (read: incorrect) use of the language, they revert to "it's very complicated to explain...". It's not complicated at all, actually, they just don't understand the language they are using.

Silence... That's what I thought.

I guess that settles it. Jeremy has proved Pose works.

GO ahead... wrote:

Silence... That's what I thought.

I guess that settles it. Jeremy has proved Pose works.

Seb Coe ran an 800 in 1:41, approximately 13 seconds faster than "Jeremy". He never took a Pose class. I guess that settles it. Seb has proved that Pose is useless

JHuffman = GO Ahead = Giver of Knowledge

pose is gay

Wow, if that's the best logic you've got, then no wonder you are a POSE believer.

How about trying to explain how what the POSE method is described as is being shown in the video?

Take the lean for example:

http://www.posetech.com/library/pp-RW-0002.html

"To speed up, the runner increases the lean so that turnover must also increase."

How far do you think one must lean if one is dropping down to 1:54/800 pace? Can someone explain the gravitational forces required to 'pull' one forward at 1:54/800 speed? What angle of lean would be then required? Certainly looks to these untrained eyes that he is running with very vertical posture.

Now while the video quality is obviously poor, just freeze framing it at several points seemed to suggest we were seeing definitive heel striking, or at least landing ahead of the center of mass. Maybe someone can provide screen shots that show this to be otherwise.

I'm not disputing he's running fast (although no where near as fast as numerous non-POSERs have). I just don't see how what he's doing can be called anything near 'perfect POSE' and used as an absolute proof of anything beyond the fact he is capable of running a 1:54 800.