why does David Roche keep banging on about being in sub-4 at altitude shape?

Whoa, this thread has progressed quite a bit since I last checking it. Hope y'all are having a good Super Bowl Sunday.

I was thinking about this thread some on my long run today (because I guess I have nothing better to do) and I have come away somewhat more circumspect.

I think that there is a bit of a disconnect between what David Roche puts out athlete / coach / influencer for the general public consumption vs what an athlete would stay to say on this board.

Here's what I mean: to people that frequent this website, there is a very, very real difference between running 400m repeats on 70s vs 65s vs 60s . But to a newer runner, or cross-fitter, or my mom, that 10 seconds and very boring.

I don't know a lot about Rich Roll, but my understanding is that he has had much more success as a podcaster than he ever had as post-collegiate athlete. And I can only imagine that his audience is even more removed from athletics than he is.

All this is to say, I don't think David Roche is publishing content for the letsrun crowd.

And, to take a step back, my mom or brother knows that a "4 mine mile shape" sounds really fast. But, like, "2:15 marathon shape" wouldn't mean as much to them. And 14:00:00 WSER shape would draw blank stares.

So all of this is to say, I don't think David Roche is speaking to this group. I am not his target market, and neither are you, because we are the running super-fans. And as super-fans, I think a lot of us are entitled to pushback to some of Roche's more hyperbolic statements. I hope he would agree, but who knows.

All that said, I'll end with something positive about David Roche - I believe he is drawing more eyeballs towards this trail running as a sport and I think that's a good thing for everyone.

Good night and may all your PBs end in .59s

Yeah he is drawing more eyes—our eyes

From what I've read in this long thread, this is depressing. I've liked David Roche's articles, ultra legs video, and recent interviews. While he's a bit too happy for my taste, and the jokes are bit beyond my dad jokes, I've seem him as a good guy helping other people.

However, he's said puzzling things. Not just the claims about his mile and 5k ability while training for trail ultras but saying there's not much doping these days and it's food doping now. I would expect him to know that the in-competition EPO test is easy to beat from looking at the Martin 2021 paper and that the biological passport can be manipulated using the 2016 Bedjer paper.

I don't have an opinion on other claims here, but it would be helpful if people identify themselves. There's not much to lose if you're defending him.

I know haha I agreed with you

And as far as professional cycling, the rumor is that they combine carbon monoxide exposure (carefully monitored in a lab with measurements) with HIF stabilizers. Since molidustat rapidly leaves the body and WADA only requires basic lab equipment sensitivity it's like a green light for EPO's replacement.

I’m a well known, high level athlete who doesn’t want to be ripped apart if I identify myself honestly. I just think this is all kind of funny discussion at this point tbh. I appreciate how you’re taking a more matter of fact stance though

He's speaking to whatever group will listen to him and that will tell him that he's "amazing" and "fast". He certainly knows better with what he is projecting to the masses and what is misleading but he does it anyway. Here on LetsRun we actually have enough sleuths and higher IQs to call out his BS for what it is.

It's all for the attention, the validation and the power he seemingly craves.

Many ultrarunners are also clueless about what it takes to run a sub 4:00 min mile or a sub 14:00 min 5km at attitude. They literally think he invented strides and that running economy and Vo2max are the real new gamechangers they need as well as 150grams of carbs per hour.

It's all part of the Roche façade. It's not reality, but it's tied up in toxic positivity and false hope. And that's just how his own projection of his own running plays out on social media.

The whole "coaching farm" is another aspect of being misleading and taking advantage of people which is probably even worse.

I'd say he's more like a cult leader as others have noticed these patterns.

I'm not even sure toxic positivity is the correct phrase. I listened to his podcast once and turned it off because during it he was snarling venom at JK Rowling (for taking issue with males in female events). A quick scan of his latest tweets and his pinned tweet says "When I was young, I chased prize purses. Now, I chase history…the plates can be used to collect the tears of doubters". Plus his most recent workout clip also says he's running on "a bit of hate" because of online comments from his 'haters' and that "They’re not willing to go to the places I’m about to go. 4:26 pace, LET’S HIT THIS.”

Now, imagine Kerr or Jakob said they were 'drinking the tears of their doubters', 'running on the hate' of online letsrun posters, or seething over a children's author on a podcast. These behaviours are way more negative than anything they've ever publicly said and yet, they often get called arrogant and irritable whereas the person who actually made these remarks is somehow 'positive' (albeit toxically).

Saying "I love you" every 75 seconds in between blatantly negative statements isn't toxic positivity in my opinion, it's something more like 'badly camouflaged negativity'.

"Ah, the Roche Paradox—simultaneously toxically positive and deeply negative, a validation-hungry grifter and an arrogant cult leader, an irredeemable softie and a snarling menace. He both knows nothing about running and has somehow tricked hundreds of athletes into thinking he does. Incredible.

But let’s be honest: this isn’t about training philosophy, social media, or even his coaching success. It’s that he dared to call out J.K. Rowling’s relentless punching down. And as we all know, there’s no greater sin than failing to stroke the fragile egos of the most perpetually offended people on the internet.

So now we get the usual cope—principled opposition is ‘venom,’ speaking up is ‘snarling,’ and the real outrage isn’t years of transphobic bile from the richest author on earth, but that someone dared to care about it. Meanwhile, this forum has spent weeks dissecting his every word like a papal conclave.

At this point, just admit it: Roche’s real crime is refusing to flatter the insecurities of a bunch of angry hobby joggers. But go on, keep picking at the portrait like Lord Henry in Dorian Gray, convinced that if you just find the right brushstroke, all your problems will be his fault instead of your own."

Absolute lol that you think angry white men spewing bile about JK Rowling is somehow brave or even unusual. She has had to deal with the unscientific, misogynistic ramblings of an infinite stream of these weak, entitled men- purely because she used her platform to speak out for female-only spaces. How dare she, right?! So no, I'm not impressed at all by a man telling a woman what she can and can't say and what opinions she is and isn't allowed to have. And Roche seeing a male punching females in the face during the Olympics and somehow spinning it into an anti-JK Rowling rant on his podcast is yet another example of men blaming women for male violence. Huzzah, I suppose?

"Ah yes, the classic ‘man supporting trans rights = man oppressing women’ argument. A towering achievement in intellectual dishonesty. We’ve now entered full Master and Margarita territory, where bad actors rewrite reality on the fly, and suddenly, Roche is some kind of mustache-twirling villain rather than a decent human being speaking out against discrimination.

But here’s the truth: defending marginalized people isn’t an act of tyranny. Criticizing someone’s views isn’t ‘telling them what they can and can’t say.’ And pointing out that trans women deserve fairness and dignity isn’t an attack on cis women—it’s a defense of all women. If that’s too much nuance, then by all means, keep raging at phantoms."

"Let me say again for the people at the back

TRANS RIGHTS ARE HUMAN RIGHTS

TRANS WOMEN ARE WOMEN

TRANS RIGHTS ARE HUMAN RIGHTS

TRANS WOMEN ARE WOMEN

In many ways trans women are MORE womanly than cis women because they weren't simply born with womanhood. They had to learn it, study it, become it. They earned their place in the locker room."

Dude y r u putting so much effort into this thread? Y u care? Y r u so mad?

Citation needed.

Such a good point that it should be posted again:

I'm not even sure toxic positivity is the correct phrase. I listened to his podcast once and turned it off because during it he was snarling venom at JK Rowling (for taking issue with males in female events). A quick scan of his latest tweets and his pinned tweet says "When I was young, I chased prize purses. Now, I chase history…the plates can be used to collect the tears of doubters". Plus his most recent workout clip also says he's running on "a bit of hate" because of online comments from his 'haters' and that "They’re not willing to go to the places I’m about to go. 4:26 pace, LET’S HIT THIS.”

Now, imagine Kerr or Jakob said they were 'drinking the tears of their doubters', 'running on the hate' of online letsrun posters, or seething over a children's author on a podcast. These behaviours are way more negative than anything they've ever publicly said and yet, they often get called arrogant and irritable whereas the person who actually made these remarks is somehow 'positive' (albeit toxically).

Saying "I love you" every 75 seconds in between blatantly negative statements isn't toxic positivity in my opinion, it's something more like 'badly camouflaged negativity'.

This thread is all over the place. Now it is going on about JK Rowling. There are some nice attempts to get Roche to post here, but definitely running out of material. Maybe his next video will keep things moving along. I’ve never watched one of his videos before but now I’m subscribed just to see what all the hate is about.

I suspect this thread explains a lot why Adidas passed on sponsoring Roche - he comes off like a crazy person.