Roe V Wade overturned!

lol... I'll believe PP's balance sheet over the leftist spin at WaPo thanks.

Yep. As a person who can generally understand both sides of an issues, it's hard not to feel like a crazy alien right now. I mean, am I even human because I think both sides have reasonable concerns? Even suggesting so gets you clobbered by both sides. Idk, therapists all say stuff like "you're not alone" and "other people have thought this way" so that you don't feel weird and isolated. Well, I feel isolated. How is the rest of the country so unable to have an on-topic fair argument without rampant logical fallacies? I honestly just don't understand anymore.

How many people read the Initial draft? It seems pretty reasonable that Roe v Wade should have never been passed to begin with. What good evidence is there that abortion is a constitutional right? Look, I lean pro-choice. I'm not God, I don't know when life begins (and God doesn't explicitly say either) so I don't think I could ever vote to ban abortions because of all the other factors to consider. But, that has absolutely nothing to do with whether the constitution says abortion is a right that the federal law is obligated to protect.

What's so ironic is the pro-choice side is complaining because the SCOTUS is giving the people and the States the choice. The SCOTUS is not outlawing abortion- they are simply saying (seemingly rightfully so) that they don't have the Constitutional authority to tell States how they can regulate abortion. This is pretty simple, but I've seen very little discussion across all platforms actually debating whether or not this is the right Constitutional decision. People just debate their person opinion. I understand people have emotions, but emotions aren't an excuse to be completely devoid of logic. 67 pages of reading the draft and the decision for this to not be a federal law seems at least fairly reasonable to me. Someone prove the current SCOTUS is 100% wrong. I'd love to read opposing arguments that actually address the Constitution (that wasn't sarcasm).

Plus, seemingly no one can even argue well about their personal feelings on abortion. What the heck is everyone even talking about anymore? How many dead horses can we exhaustingly beat? Pro-life people aren't trying to control women. They believe both lives should be protected, but the life of the baby should be protected over the very real, but less severe (when compared to death) consequences the woman may face. It's so simple to understand. And pro-choice people value life and value babies, but they don't believe (or don't know) a fetus at a particular stage is 'life'. If there were no downsides to continuing the pregnancies, they'd likely advocate the pregnancy to be continued. But there's a whole host of legitimate reasons why there are pros to ending a pregnancy (if you don't view it as life). This too, is incredibly simple to understand. But for some ridiculously stupid reason, we've all just decided to endlessly argue and invent reasons why the other side doesn't see things the way we do. Think for a second how insanely stupid it is to restrict women from having abortions solely for the purpose of having power over them. Read the initial draft. Every state had anti-abortions laws at some point. Many of them had them just before Roe. Most of the world, for 100s of years, has had anti-abortion laws. And you want me to believe all of these were universally about controlling women? That's just so dumb, I just can't get over it. Obviously, there's something more to it. Maybe people wanted to protect life? You have to go with the most logical solution.

But still, again, I personally lean pro-choice. I'm not convinced of when life begins. (But at the same, it's honestly a slippery slope to think about life... like why are 1 week old babies considered independent life- they have no form of higher-level thinking or self-awareness and can't survive on their own, and I honestly can't think of a cognitive- functioning difference between a 1 week old and a 22 week old fetus... but of course the thought of someone killing a 1 week old enrages me like very few other things.. but I can't even explain why it's actually a life simply because its not in a uterus. (I've thought about this a lot)). So I therefore understand why it makes sense to believe a fetus in the womb should be treated the same as a one-week old baby. Sometimes I actually feel it's logically inconsistent for me to not view a fetus the same as a 1 week old. If I'm honest, I kind of just rely on a vague gut-feeling that they're different somehow... because I can hold/touch a baby not in a uterus I guess.. But since I don't really know, I'll allow people to have an abortion, even though I wouldn't have one personally. But the vilification of pro-life people is really weird to me.

Although, I also understand that if a fetus isn't actually life, then it's dumb to restrict women from having abortions. For all the reasons people commonly recite: besides just the chance of death, pregnancy is hard on the body, raising a child is hard- financially, emotionally and logistically. Having a child you don't really want, that's unplanned, and when you have little support, is a recipe for disaster. Then sometimes fetuses sometimes don't develop properly, etc.. So I understand why people say Pro-lifers are restricting women's rights. If a fetus isn't a life, then they essentially are. In fact, I think it's fair to say "Hey, I know you believe this fetus is a life, and as much as I respect your passion to protect life, I and many others, believe this fetus likely isn't a life yet... and your view is ultimately causing unnecessary distress to women. I know you won't ever believe murder is okay, but I just want to make sure you're aware of the realities that there are significant negative consequences to restricting abortions. I can't just sit by and let these women endure this distress simply because you have a viewpoint the majority of people disagree with. So I just want to understand why you are really, really convinced that a fetus is in fact life and your reasons for believing so".

Side note: Ultimately, this is a big enough issue that each state should have a public vote about their abortion laws. I don't get why we don't? (We kind of do through elected officials, but that's not the same in my opinion.. let's just all straight up vote like a Prop)

Anyways, I'm pretty depressed. It seems we will never have effective discussions anymore. There's pretty much no chance society will ever improve anymore with people at each other's throat incapable of understanding each other and twisting their arguments to make them seem evil or stupid. I'm not really sure where to go from here. Like what am I supposed to do in life? How do I make a difference? Growing up, I kind of thought being able to understand almost everyone was a good thing, and maybe I could do something with that. I mean it sounds good, but honestly it's not. I just piss everyone off because I'm not on their team. Then if I just stay out of it, I'm actually just as bad because "I'm apathetic and passively letting the injustice continue". Whatever, I'll be fine. We'll all figure it out. Anyways, if you read this, thanks for the free therapy.

Well maybe thats because its a male dominated board and its full of people who make dismissive, belittiling comments like you who put off more people from postings what they really think of you.

I agree with the post you criticise by the way. It is ridiculous for men to force women to remain pregnant and give birth when they don't want to.

Remember the Defense of Marriage Act? Pushed through by the Republican Congress.. Clinton signed to prevent a Constitutional amendment from being pushed. Bush wanted an amendment because he knew DOMA would be overturned. Finally SCOTUS ruled DOMA unconstitutional in 2013 and 2015.....nearly 20 years after the passing of DOMA. Would this SCOTUS rule the same way? The GOP has lived by these moral issues for decades. They used to be the party of small government, but Reagan ruined that.

Alan

“Don’t like the evidence? Just deny it!”

Controlling one's body is the issue. You can ascribe personhood to a fetus if you want to, but personhood doesn't grant you the right to use someone else's body. That's the standard whether you are a fully-grown adult or a zygote.

It doesn't matter what sort of responsibility you think a woman has, she has a right to consent or to withdraw consent for anything that happens to her. You can walk out of a job, change your mind about organ donation, ask someone to stop having sex with you, and stop being pregnant if you don't want to be pregnant.

Firstly, is it surprising that most people don't make Constitutional arguments? People who care about a particular issue vote for a President who nominates the right type of judges and senators who will confirm them.

I would expect most people think it's a simple issue (much of it coming down to murdering babies is wrong, vs bodily autonomy, personhood etc.) and people don't need to know what legal arguments are employed to arrive at the "correct" position.

Also, aren't the pro-choice people less likely to believe in the importance of the Constitution? (This is even more likely to be the case online, as there is a lot of interest from people in other countries, where public opinion is overwhelmingly pro-choice)

70% of all wildlife has been lost in the last 50 years.

No

If a woman doesn't want to be pregnant, it's EASY to not get pregnant. They need to take personal responsibility. In cases of crime, there should be exceptions for abortions.

Abortion is murder.

84% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

If you still don't understand that WAPO is a part of the Oligarch's propaganda apparatus, you are a big part of the problem.

Women have the right to consent to being pregnant and have the ability to withdraw that consent.

It doesn't matter if the pregnancy was intentional, unintentional or the result of consentual or unconsentual sex.

You can change your mind about what happens to your body if that's the decision you want to make. That's freedom.

Lol this fight over abortion is so childish (pun intended). Those on the pro-abortion (aka pro-choice to kill children) side are all just a bunch of unhinged leftist coomers throwing a temper tantrum because they think the government is trying to take away their creampies.

Except at the moment of conception it's no longer her body that she's terminating. You don't have the freedom to kill others, or you shouldn't at least. I know this is such a hard concept when all you're craving is big fat cooms.

I don’t you believe you actually mean this. We have different standards for people at different stages of life. We don’t apply the same standard to babies as we do fully-grown adults. We feed our babies- sticking the bottle or food into their mouths, we carry them around, rock them to sleep, change their diapers, wipe their butts, bathe them, take them to the doctor, many women let their babies suck their nipples to extract milk from them and are disappointed if they can’t, we constantly watch them, etc. This is not normal or expected to do with fully-grown adults.

You make sacrifices to help other human life- that’s one of the basics of being a human and consistent with most liberal positions. So your view that ‘personhood doesn’t even matter’ is one of the most unique takes I’ve ever heard, and I don’t think you truly believe it. I don’t think there’s any circumstance you’d allow someone to kill a baby (unless the baby was somehow going to kill them). You made your comment simply to attempt to win an argument because you don’t believe a “zygote has personhood” (which is reasonable belief) and wanted those that do to side with you anyways.

Except it's growing inside someone and using another's body for life.

You don't have the right to use another person's body for your own purpose without consent. Doesn't matter if you are a zygote or a 35 year old.

In most abortion debates. I expect very few to discuss the constitution. But right now, people are upset at the ‘draft’ that will overturn Roe v Wade if completed. So they are specifically concerned with the constitutionally-related federal status of it. This thread title is specifically about the status of overruling Roe V Wade.

People have been arguing about abortion forever, but if you are upset specifically about if the constitution says it should be a federally protected right, then actually argue about that. I haven’t read a single post that says “Well, the current SCOTUS may actually be correct that this isn’t a constitutionally protected right, but I believe it should absolutely be a right and every citizen should lobby to their state advocating abortion should be legal and here’s why:”. Or, atleast “No, the SCOTUS is wrong, this is a constitutional right, not because of the million reasons I’m pro-choice- but because of XYZ about the constitution that’s proves it is”.