Alex Hutchinson calls out CANOVA over study confirming EPO works on Kenyan runners

Your continuity of training theory would carry more weight if you didn't use sudden improvement over a few months to illustrate how training works.

Because that's how dope works.

yeah i would love to see renato take 9:45 2 milers and turn them into 13:30s 5k

then i might have to say he knows his stuff

Um, ever heard of Steve Jones?

I don't have a THEORY. I explain what REALLY happens, with athletes of great talent and proper training.

So, I don't go to fabricate some theory without proof, but I speak about FACTS.

I don't use "sudden improvements" for illustrating how training works.

But it's a fact that, with talent and proper training, the improvements can be "sudden".

The fact that you can have sudden improvement with training only, and/or with doping, can only confirm what I say : doping for long endurance can only achieve the same results of training.

Of course, when the athletes are really talented. And don't forget we speak of Kenyans, who have an aerobic base very high BEFORE starting official training, due to their system of living and the stay in altitude.

so what about EPO....oh thats right you dont think it works hahaha

only YOUR training can do the SAME effects as synthetically created hormone rhEPO...but listen hear folks only renatos training can make that claim....obviously not rosa's training, otherwise sumgong, jeptoo, and kiprop wouldnt have needed to go that route

LOLz all day and every day

I don't know what you want to demonstrate speaking about Steve Jones.

He can be a good example for confirming what I wrote above : there is not ONE SHAPE, but ONE SPECIFIC SHAPE FOR A SPECIFIC DISTANCE.

Steve Jones went to Marathon in 1985. He won 2 very important marathons :

London (21.04) in 2:08:16, and Chicago (30.10) in 2:07:13.

The only other competitions on track of the year were :

10000m in Stockholm (2.07) finishing in 10th position with 27'53"91, and

5000m in London (19.07) finishing in 8th position with 13'37"52.

Since his PB in the two distances were :

5000m in 13'18"6 in 1982 (3 years before) and

10000m in 27'39"14 in 1983 (2 years before)

this can only confirm that it's not possible to run your best in a shorter distance on track when you prepare Marathon, and that is not possible to run at your best in long distances when you prepare shorter distances on track.

This means that the performance of Kejelcha was something astonishing, looking at his 3'32"59 in 1500m only 12 days before.

So, I heard of Steve Jones, but I suppose you never knew what he did, or have some problem of comprehension when I speak about training.

i dont know why you say EPO doesnt work, like what is the agenda?

two....

you claim it is not possible to run your best in shorter distances? ok big HOT shot why dont you use your DIVINE intelligence and explain MO...i mean you did claim you are the SOLE reason for his late 20s surge to greatness...and kipchoge's coach just said he could run a 5k 12:40 and 10k 26:10 RIGHT NOW....and im sure you know soooo much about kipchoge, you know since you coach him right? blahhhhahahaha LOLz and more LOLz

Mindweak, it's not only MY training, but the training of EVERY GOOD COACH knowing the PRACTICE methodology, that has very little to do with all the physiological studies.

So, Patrick Sang KNOWS what we have to do in training, and the final result is an unbelievable WR from a CLEAN athlete, product of training, talent and professionalism, something doped athletes don't have in the same measure.

So, Brother Colm KNOWS what athletes have to do in training, and the final result is a WR from a CLEAN athlete, again product of talent, training and professionalism, while doped athletes (like Kipyegon Bett), in spide of their talent, are about 20 meters far from his performance.

So, I KNOW what my athletes have to do in training, and the final result is a WR from a CLEAN athlete like Shaheen, and many top performances, product of talent, training and professionalism, while doped athletes are slower.

And Rosa's training doesn't exist, because in that management there are many local coaches who know only SOMETHING about what the athletes have to do in training (this from when the Dr. Gabriele Rosa stopped to follow directly the training of the athletes).

Who believe in training, KNOWS how to produce the best results in clean way.

Who doesn't know training, THINKS that only with doping talented athletes can reach the top of their event, and that doping also NOT talented athletes can become Champions.

That, of course, is not true, and clearly explains WHY the doped athletes belong to 2 categories :

1) Talented athletes WITH POOR TRAINING (mainly for the lack of good coaching)

2) Not talented athletes, cheated by some doctor/pharmacist/coach with the illusion they can fill the gap with the best.

nice confusing buddy

1) so kiprop, sumgong, and jeptoo had bad coaching? lolz!!!

or is it

2) kiptop, sumgong, and jeptoo were not talented! hahaha

how about this renato....how about its kiprop, sumgong, and jeptoo are TALENTED, had as good as coaching as YOU claim you can produce....and the kicker....took EPO!!! oh sh*t they did take EPO, and for a while they were ON TOP OF THE F*CKING WORLD and rosa looked like a genius! lolz and more lolz...oh and you didnt care to answer the part about mo and kipchoge running FAST at shorter distances while training for the marathon...but of course you wouldnt cause it would make you look confused again

Again you shows two things :

a) You don't understand anything about training. Mo Farah, and Eliud Kipchoge (who in any case I don't think can run his PB of 5000m at the moment) WERE ABLE TO RUN FAST SHORT DISTANCES WHILE PREPARING LONG EVENTS.

The case of Kejelcha is the opposite : he was able to run fast a HM preparing something shorter.

When we increase the volume raising the LT (using fast long run between 10 and 20 km, and long tests on track at a speed a little faster than the LT, or tests of middle length at the speed of LT, with short recovery and big volume, or finally long distances with variations of speed, with the recovery at a pace of 80% of the 10000m speed), WITH FEW WORKOUTS OF SPECIFIC SPEED ENDURANCE for a shorter distance we can improve our PB.

The opposite is not possible.

So, if you are an athlete of 800 and 1500m, when you start to increase the volume looking at 3000m, automatically you improve in 1500m.

So, the rule is : when you prepare the longer distance (10000m looking at 5000m, 5000m looking at 1500m, HM looking at 10000m, Marathon looking at HM) you can improve your PB in the shorter, maintaining workouts of speed endurance in bigger volume. When you mainly look at speed, not only you don't improve your PB, but step by step your performance becomes worse.

b) You are a total liar, putting in my mouth something I NEVER SAID : for example, that I say the merit of the explosion of Mo Farah is mine, when simply I explained what Mo did, and how I adviced him, during the period between October 2009 and August 2010, immediately before going to Alberto. You can read what himself wrote about that period in his biography.

I never said I have the "magician potion" for making miracles with the athletes. On the contrary, I respect a lot of coaches (during the European Championships I was in the Team of Norway and I could know very well the professionalism and the system of Father Ingebrigtsen), because we meet frequently, speak together as part of the same world. So, we know each other, and know their training principles, their mentality and their ethic values. For that reason, there is some coach we don't trust too much, because lacks the last point (but, please, don't ask me the name...).

It seems you are doing a crusade against myself, because I'm able to produce top results without doping, and this can create doubts about your "faith" in the big advantages of blood doping.

Sorry if I continue to produce top results in clean way, and like me other coaches working with Kenyan and Ethiopian runners. Our final goal is to drive the athletes to run fast on the track and on the roads in clean way, not to win the competition of the higher Hct.

Jones went to the Marathon in '84 and despite not training properly set a WR.

Carlos Lopes won WCC, ran the second fastest 10k of all time and then won the Olympic Marathon. All in the same year.

The next year he won WCC again and set a Msrathon WR.

So it seems you can indeed do OK at a few distances.

"this can only confirm that it's not possible to run your best in a shorter distance on track when you prepare Marathon, and that is not possible to run at your best in long distances when you prepare shorter distances on track"

those are your own words numb nuts, then you come back with an atitude, and try to insult me with saying this

"You don't understand anything about training. Mo Farah, and Eliud Kipchoge (who in any case I don't think can run his PB of 5000m at the moment) WERE ABLE TO RUN FAST SHORT DISTANCES WHILE PREPARING LONG EVENTS.

The case of Kejelcha is the opposite : he was able to run fast a HM preparing something shorter."

so what is it renato? you cant keep your YELLING attitude in order can you?

"For that reason, there is some coach we don't trust too much, because lacks the last point (but, please, don't ask me the name...)"

you know what that sounds like? kara goucher anyone? its truly pathetic that you keep this going. are you or are you not against DOPING? well i find it super confusing that you would be against it considered how you PREACH non stop that DOPOING doestn work, and only works on slow, non talented, nonathletic individuals...and then why the f*ck would anyone care? even with the dope they would never be able to get close to competitive times right?

you dont call out rosa cause your both sailing in the same boat, and yes i am totally agreeing with you on this one, you and the Ingebrigtsen's skype each other and share your secret training knowledge lolz...you are unbelievable, now you subtlety taking credit for them as well? whats next? rupp, the roberstons? komans 3000? paula? who havent you shown your secret methodology to? lolz

You are really totally obfuscated.

Where did I say that "I exchanged the secrets of training" with the father of Ingebrigtsen ?

When did I take credit for the Ingebrigtsen ?

What I said, is that, among some coaches of top athletes, we frequently speak of training, and we know the most part of training of the athletes (also if we are not their coach), when we work in the same track, and we are friends.

But of course, with your obsessed mentality, it's absolutely NOT possible that two coaches of top athletes can be friends. You see enemies everywhere, and your imagination brings you to think that there are a lot of secrets in training, and everybody has to look at other coaches with suspicion.

Maybe in Flagstaff is like this. But in Iten and Kaptagat is not like this. I meet Brother Colm almost every day, and we speak about a lot of things, including training.

I meet Patrick on the track very frequently, and we speak about training, because the experiences of one of us can be useful for the other, too, and only speaking about experiences with different kind of athletes we can grow, better knowing the effects of training.

I never took some merit for athletes that I don't coach. But I like to speak about my personal experiences in training, and the same other coaches can do.

You act really in bad faith when speaks about me, in not honest way. You don't know anything about the situation in Kenya : the links between different managements, the Group in different places, the different enviroments, the different mentalities. But, of course, you read a lot of studies, the most part not connected with the top athletics, and decide that the researches of the Pharma companies about their medicines are ABSOLUTELY valid also for people not only in good health, but out of the average BECAUSE OF THEIR TRAINING.

You put together not comparable situations, and don't believe in the REALITY : IT'S POSSIBLE TO BE AT THE TOP IN CLEAN WAY.

If you don't believe in that possibility, all your speculations are on a wrong base, and for me your credibility and your knowledge is less than zero.

ok so do you or do you know support rosa?

are you or are you not against DOPING? i dont know about your renato, but I DID run in college, and trained with lots of amazing runners, so to belittle me like i dont know ANYTHING about training is off base.

im sure in your arrogance you dont think joe vigil, or damon martin arent up to your standards on coaching ability. why you insist to insult me over DOPING, is beyond me. if DOPING wasnt a problem, and if DOPING didnt work, then the world wouldnt need WADA or any other agency, you wouldnt need piss and blood tests, biological passports, etc....but you continually attack me as if im the problem....did i run 3:26 and then go down for EPO? sure didnt BOSS, that was a KENYAN who everyone worshiped as a BELIEF that kenyans were just that SUPERIOR.

and flagstaff? why are you bringing up flagstaff? is it cause you know its a hotbed for north american EPO doping?

again do you or do you not support rosa? why do you say nothing concerning his stable getting busted for EPO, why are you the only one proclaiming over and over that EPO will not and cannot work on .001% of the worlds population? you act like i have some secret agenda? well since your claim you are light years more intelligent than me, then why cant you INFORM me and all of LR what my secret agenda is?

am i some self proclaimed greatest coach in the world with fame and notoriety to uphold so i claim doping is an impossibility cause my runners are so much better, performance enhancing drugs would do nothing to them? no im not, i have no fame, no fortune, no pride, no reason to make up some lie about EPO. but you mock and insult me as if i have some secret reason for it, ok then PLEASE why dont you enlighten my why i would make up something so bizarre as "EPO works and can give a runner a ~4% gain in performance"....

It seems to me, if someone says EPO is ineffective, this is someone advising AGAINST taking EPO.

On the other hand, if someone says you cannot win without EPO, then this is someone ENDORSING taking EPO.

rekrunner wrote:

It seems to me, if someone says EPO is ineffective, this is someone advising AGAINST taking EPO.

On the other hand, if someone says you cannot win without EPO, then this is someone ENDORSING taking EPO.

It's a moot point because if EPO is "ineffective" athletes continue to use it after 3 decades since it was first introduced to athletics (e.g., Kiprop, Jeptoo, Sumgong, Jebet, Kalalei, Bett, Mikhou, Savina).

OTOH, if athletes "can't win without EPO" and it's very effective, then it's imperative for the IAAF to step up the consequences for testing positive for EPO/ABP violation. I would suggest a lifetime ban and all medals, titles, times, etc. annulled from the previous 3 years. Also, any money from sponsorship/endorsements should be paid back.

rekrunner wrote:

It seems to me, if someone says EPO is ineffective, this is someone advising AGAINST taking EPO.

On the other hand, if someone says you cannot win without EPO, then this is someone ENDORSING taking EPO.

Of course it would SEEM that way to you.

To someone else it might seem that they are advising against taking it so that you don't catch up with their athletes.

Or the person saying you can't win without it is saying be happy with where you finish and know that you are not a cheat.

It would seem then that this contradiction between what was said, and what was understood, originates in the minds of "someone else".

physics defiant wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

It seems to me, if someone says EPO is ineffective, this is someone advising AGAINST taking EPO.

On the other hand, if someone says you cannot win without EPO, then this is someone ENDORSING taking EPO.

Of course it would SEEM that way to you.

To someone else it might seem that they are advising against taking it so that you don't catch up with their athletes.

Or the person saying you can't win without it is saying be happy with where you finish and know that you are not a cheat.

Athletes use it 30 years later, because it is highly ENDORSED. Part of the solution is prevention -- giving athletes a realistic idea of the big risks versus the small reward.

Let's Get To The Bottom Of This wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

It seems to me, if someone says EPO is ineffective, this is someone advising AGAINST taking EPO.

On the other hand, if someone says you cannot win without EPO, then this is someone ENDORSING taking EPO.

It's a moot point because if EPO is "ineffective" athletes continue to use it after 3 decades since it was first introduced to athletics (e.g., Kiprop, Jeptoo, Sumgong, Jebet, Kalalei, Bett, Mikhou, Savina).

OTOH, if athletes "can't win without EPO" and it's very effective, then it's imperative for the IAAF to step up the consequences for testing positive for EPO/ABP violation. I would suggest a lifetime ban and all medals, titles, times, etc. annulled from the previous 3 years. Also, any money from sponsorship/endorsements should be paid back.