Sub 1:50 800m Training

Good stuff...stay healthy!

Hills are enough along with your drills. You are getting plenty of speed base in...

I would make certain you are working in a weekly tempo instead of the second interval workout...

OldSub4 wrote:

Apologies...brain fart on my end.

The facts you state do change my guess a bit on what the athlete's best event would be. I guess I would have to defer to body shape. If the athlete weight in pounds is less than 108% of 2 times his height in inches, I would say he should stick with middle distance and try to just work more on his stamina to stretch out his natural speed. If the athlete is more muscle-prone and thick framed, the times you mentioned (48 and 3:58) actually are not too far off the range of some world class decathaletes, so mabye he should learn the jumps, throws, vault and hurdles instead! In all seriousness, if the athlete is built more like a sprinter I think he should try a season solely at 400m to see what happens...Dont know if this is helpful

Hm... sorry to say, not really helpful, as this athlete is borderline.

Height is 72", weight usually 160, although it may dip as low as 155 (the limit of the formula you gave) after 6 - 8 weeks of high-volume basework (80 - 100 mpw).

Not somewhat muscular at present (was more muscular as a 16 yr. old hockey player at 170lbs.), but has a tendency to gain too much muscle mass when weights are used, so he sticks to plyometrics and the like for distance running.

Physique is not decisively distance-like nor sprinter-like, just in-between. Could definitely gain muscle, but cannot get lower than 155lbs. regardless of training and diet.

Thanks for all the advice so far,

I've relayed it to the athlete in question.

Seems to be leaning towards 400/800 for this coming track season... we'll see how it goes.

OldSub4,

I have been trying to improve my running form by the measures you provided earlier in the thread. I have been having a hard time visualizing how you describe the proper running form and how one should "sit" during a kick. When I try to push my hips forward I tend to "reach" with my feet rather than hit the footstrike directly beneath my body. Also, by trying to push my hips forward, i often catch myself leaning back and tensing up my shoulders. Is there any way you could explain the running form even more simply than you already have? Thanks in advance.

I've been trying the "sitting" and kicking method ever since OldSub4 described it a while back. The first time I tried it I was amazed at how effective it seemed. I try to focus on turnover more then anything, I think it is the key. Try to be able to get to the point where you can switch in and out of sitting and striding at a moments notice, as you would have to in a race.

Check out this video of the mens white race...sure Chelanga won but look at the kick that Heath produced, taking down about 6-8 guys in the last 150...he clearly "sits" down into his stride to get faster.

http://www.flotrack.org/videos/coverage/view_video/234177/75916-mens-white-race-course-record

I try and use visualizations to perfect the technique.

-the hips should always be forward, when sitting and kicking you just get a little "lower" in the stride (hips still as forward as possible)

-work the hip flexors more, really whip the leg through as fast as possible. This part takes time in developing, but it is the main way to incease turnover.

-work the hamstrings more too, part of the reason sitting makes you faster is that you can extend your leg farther behind you+more powerfully

-try not to bounce or bound AT ALL. These should be the smoothest you ever feel when running

-I think heel striking for some people during these is almost unavoidable. I'm one of those people, it just happens

-as mentioned above, try and focus on turnover. Not that 180 number mentioned by JD, that was for 3k and up. Try for 240 as a starting point, focus on picking up your foot from the ground and placing it down (gently, just in front of the center of gravity) as fast as possible.

-knees should not come up all that high. It's not a shuffle, but you want to focus on turnover

-keep the body upright (it is tough sometimes but flexing your core while doing these can help. try and stay relaxed though)

These can be tough on the hips...do not practice too much, twice a week is plenty, once you get it once a week is enough to maintain.

Of course, if OS4 says something different then take his advice over mine, those have just been my experiences over the past few months.

pretty bird wrote:

OldSub4,

I have been trying to improve my running form by the measures you provided earlier in the thread. I have been having a hard time visualizing how you describe the proper running form and how one should "sit" during a kick. When I try to push my hips forward I tend to "reach" with my feet rather than hit the footstrike directly beneath my body. Also, by trying to push my hips forward, i often catch myself leaning back and tensing up my shoulders. Is there any way you could explain the running form even more simply than you already have? Thanks in advance.

Striding is more "hips forward" stance which is taller, more efficient, and less stressful on your frame -- this is the form I would use for 95% of training and for the first 650-700m of an 800m. Concentrate on back-end mechanics, heel lift behind you, hamstring strength, and "popping" off the ground quickly on your feet.

"Sitting" is when you let your hips sink back a bit, you get a bit more lean in the waist, and you end up with a larger range of motion in the hip joint to generate a TON more power and kick. It doesnt last long, and it puts a great deal of strain on your achilles and IT bands as they must grip the ground in front of you to stabilize your heelstrike instead of your lower quads and hamstrings. Key is keeping turnover and having done all the work the whole year with drills to keep your hip flexors strong and quick.

Drills, Plyos are a great way to work the "sitting" power form without tearing up your body. Since it is purely end-of-race, you dont need to use this form during distance, tempos, intervals etc...it will get you injured over time.

That said, make certain that you do some practice changing gears at speed during your sharpening phase...Key feeling for me was that I felt like I was running hills, using my glut a lot more. Watch videos of Seb Coe (watch him transition with 100m to go), or Peter Elliott - one of the all-time sitters....

Really?

...I duuuunnnoooo...

Keep the knees low?

Heel strike?

I think when it comes to kicking, the biomechanics have to be learned by the body, not the head... and what I mean by that is: lots of proper drills, exercises to keep a well-balanced body (no glaring biomechanical imbalances), strenght and power in all the right places... and practice, practice, practice.

Talking and thinking about good biomechanics is not going to improve them. But proper practice siure will. Just like learning a good golf swing.

That being said... just to add my own contribution to your list... it seems that dorsiflexion is a HUGE component in speeding up turnover... often, with distance runners, you'll see a tendancy for the foot to trail through the turnover cycle... I think a product of lots and lots of relaxed, slow-to-medium-paced running and lack of focus on power and biomechanics...

Anyway, that trailing slows down turnover, or at least makes it harder... so dorsiflexion really helps.

Heel striking is just a personal thing, I actually find that when I am doing it well I actually land sort of on the outside of the foot then role inward then the heel lands, the faster I go the more towards the ball of the foot the first contact is.

Not low knees, it's not a shuffle. Watch Coe for instance

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Jk_CZbBQ6M

at 35 seconds he is doing road work at a good clip but his knee lift is quite low...same with when it shows flashes of him running in the 4X800 world record...knee lift moderately high but turnover is very very fast.

I try an imagine driving the knee forward rather them up. It results in fairly high knees still but the visualization is different, and it results is a smoother action.

At 1:20 he is running with incredible form but also a lot faster so higher knee lift...here you can see him driving the knee forward more clearly.

Coe doesn't seem to dorsiflex a huge amount during the recovery phase but I agree with you anyways, it seems to help keep the foot closer to the hips. I completely overlooked that.

OS4, I'm a 19 year old miler who is comfortable working in mileages of about 70-90 a week at peak volume. I hold a pretty consistent volume throughout the year and I've made huge strides in my endurance in the last two years. However, my speed hasn't gotten much better.

Now, I don't do a lot of wicked specific stuff for raw speed- probably nothing more elaborate than strides at the end of easy days and some basic plyos a few times a week. I don't lift or anything either.

Do you think I should make these two things a regular part of what I do? Time is kind of a constraint for me, so what's the most time effective thing I can do to improve my raw speed?

I'm more of a miler than an 800 guy, though I do love the 800. However, if I'm being honest with myself, I should probably be moving up to the 5k anyway, as I seem to thrive off lots of ten mile hard runs and other longer distance stuff.

Personal bests are as follows-

200- 24.5 (end of a workout- the 10th of 10 200s, the previous 9 starting at 33 and working down to 26).

400- 52.0 (relay, hit it consistently)

800- 1:55.6

1500: 3:52.4

5000 (only ran it once) 14:55.

What should I be focusing on to take my 200 and 400 times down? I would imagine that would lead to better marks at 800 and 1500 as well, provided I maintain the strength I've developed.

If you don't use it then you lose it, or at best maintain it...what are the odds your cholesterol is gonna plummet for not reason?

look at me, I'm a moron, don't know where to use the "you too" phrase...and also don't know the difference between no and not...just cover me with a tarp already

First off don't focus on taking your 200/400 down. That is the wrong training. You want to run a fast 400 off your 1500m training.

You can a little speed work but don't make it much of a focus. The basic list for distance runners is

a) short hills 10-15s all out

b) Plyometrics

c) weights. Hit and miss. Make sure you are doing lifts that help the running muscles. Biceps don't make your run fast. Hip flexors do.

d) some people swear by drills. Others find them a waste of time.

fUrCeOsNhN wrote:

Not low knees, it's not a shuffle. Watch Coe for instance

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Jk_CZbBQ6M

at 35 seconds he is doing road work at a good clip but his knee lift is quite low...same with when it shows flashes of him running in the 4X800 world record...knee lift moderately high but turnover is very very fast.

It looked to me like he was just out for a regular old run at 0:35...

At the beginning of the video he looked like he was going pretty quick, though.

You could definitely build a good case for the midfoot thing... just watch any clip of Ovett kicking away from the field at the end of a 1500.. looks midfoot to me...

But the again, the angles that the foot is at when it touches the ground are so subtle that you'd really need a close-up, hi-def camera to determine exactly what part of the foot touched the ground first.

It's tough to tell from a distance.

One of my old coaches would always get on my case for landing flat-footed when running fastish stuff... he was a proponent of te "on your toes" school of thought... anyway, I would always tell him that I was landing on the ball of my foot, because that's what I felt... I mean, I should know, right?

But I guess from a distance it looked like I was landing flat-footed... anyway.

I've never really endorsed make my runnning look a certain way, I'm more into running in such a way such that I get from A to B as quickly and efficiently as possible... which is really the name of the game...

Improving your speed takes real work, but it's definitely possible. Not only in my own experience, but I remember watching a Nick Symmonds interview where he said "I never ran a 200 (in a workout) faster than 27 in college, and now I've been doing 25's since November (I think the interview was in June), so my speed has definitely come a long way.".

Then he said something top the effect of he was lookig to improve it more, so he could "get to the point where I can open up in 50 with everyone.".

Plyos, drills, strides, short hills...

Focus on building lots of power in your stride and improving your biomechanics through the above listed exercises. It won't happen overnight, but it'll do a heck of a lot more than just strides will ever do.

That's my $0.02.

If Old Sub 4 says otherwise, I would defer to him if I were you. He's been there, done that.

HADD wrote a while ago

-----------------------------------

The point is, I can think of a number of reasons why you might not be able to run fast. I would figure it out pretty quick if I could observe you, but without that, here are some possibilities:

1. You run like a marathon dude on your heels and have no idea how to get up on the balls of your feet and sprint. (Someone already suggested you work with a sprint coach)

2. Your leg muscles are weak and you run from your knees, not from your hips. (A good coach would confirm this, and you might need some weight work to strengthen your legs (esp: hip extensors) and some drills to improve your coordination. Even better, malmo's "heels" which do a pretty good job of combining all these.)

3. Your *style* is horrendous, arms and legs everywhichway? (weeks and weeks of malmo's "heeels" and coordination drills with someone observing/videoing before slowly trying to transfer this into faster running on the track)

4. You haven't a fast twitch fibre in your body (you say otherwise, without saying how you are so sure).

-------------------------------------

Most people have a combination of 1+2+3

Thanks for all the advice so far,

I've relayed it to the athlete in question.

Seems to be leaning towards 400/800 for this coming track season... we'll see how it goes.

Experiment with the following if the athlete wants to continue on with the 800m:

60 miles per week/12 mile long run max

more work of continuous 800m with change of pace

200m in 27 into 400m in 75 into 200m in 27

(2:09 total time)

800 jog

3 times

Drills -- really work these, have the runner do a dedicated session where they are doing 4 sets of high knees, butt kicks, kick outs, skipping, and backward running until they are doing the drill for 200m (takes a minute or so)

200m sessions with low rest...8-10x with 60-90 seconds moving the paces down so that you are relaxed at pace without full recovery

instead of tempo something like 12-16 400m in 80 with 15 seconds rest.

Basically increasing the quality while working the strength system. I would keep mileage above 50 as world class 400m guys might do for their base training...

Sorry -- Knownothing above was me...my kid was posting somewhere else!

My opinion, you are clearly more talented in the 1500/5000 and you should go with it.

That said, you have decent speed already--your 200m and 400m times are in line. Your 1500 and 5000 arent too out of line either, what is out of line is your 800 which is too slow from above.

Remember the energy phases of the 800m run. First 150m is raw speed where you are using your Creatine Phosphate stores. Next you morph into your anaerobic energy system which produces more power than your aerobic system. You reach higher levels of lactic acid build up in your system and your body revert to aerobic power to hang on at the end of the race. Of course it is not like one system shuts down and the other powers up, but that is the basic physiology of what is going on.

Seems to me your CP systems are fine, your aerobic systems are OK, but your anaerobic systems are not getting the training. The distance work you described equated to the aerobic strength and the strides keep the CP system alive, but it really is the hard interval work and the LT work that make you run a killer 800m ...in your case you should be running 1:51 given your 400 and mile.

Once per week you should be running a 6 mile run (given that you are strong aerobically naturally) at 5:30-5:40 pace if not pressing the last mile faster. by March 4 miles in 5:30, 5:20, 5:10, 5:00 (continuous).

Once per week you should be ripping some 800-1000m, then by spring morph to 600m sessions --earlier in this thread someone described the Canova regime of 4*600m at mile pace, then 3*800m faster, then 2*600m at goal 800m pace

Lastly once per week start striding 200m reps...NOT A WORKOUT--there are no crash courses here, but laying a base. Full recovery, just great form and laying out 34-32-30 and by March you are doing 31-29-27 comfortably without blowing yourself out. Speed at a lighter effort, not drilling something...that you leave for 4-6 specific workouts in the final 4 weeks leading up to peak.

During the peak in may or june, it would be interesting for you to do the following workout..2*400m 95% effort, then 3*200 cut down. My guess is that if you put the speed base work in and you also really stay diligent on the tempos and intervals, you will PR in both 400s and in the last 200. I ran 50.5 when I was 18 and ran 24ish for 200m. The followin year was my freshman year in college and my training load was precipitously increased, and I did this workout in the spring when 19 -- 49.8 (a PR) 8 min jog, then 49.5 (another PR!) 8 min jog, then 27-25-23 (another PR). Huge confidence booster as well. This workout doesn't lie. Ran 1:50.83 off that speed that year with around the same mile time as you have already done.

OS4 and others:

How do you feel about very high mileage/stringing together several high quality/high mileage days together then recovering?

ex

M 10/8 with hills

T 10/6 tempo

W 10+weights/7+sprints

Th+F REC just 5/5 and 5/5

Sat 12easy/8 hilly tempo

Sun 8+weights/8+hill sprints

=~110

Followed by an easier week of just 6/6 easy for most days