LYDIARD OR DANIELS?

oasis:

I have meant to reply to this quesiton of yours (and forgot). Lydiard had never been into such chart and, besides his speed charts in the original "Run to the Top", this is pretty much the only other chart that he incluced. I don't know exactly what triggered him to do so but just by looking at it, it simply looks like "you're a certain level of fitness or performance or whatever you might want to call it (A, B, C...) according to your age (top vertical) if you run certain time." I don't know where he got this chart and I'm a bit surprised that he included this because he'd be the first to say it doesn't matter how old you are; a performance is a performance. In short, I feel he just included that for the heck of it!

oasis,

For most runners, cross country is a test of endurance, not speed. If you can get a boy to the point where he can run, and I do mean run, at close to his best effort for 3 miles, the speed aspect takes care of itself. I usually have the runners do 3-4 x 100 at mile effort after their "recovery" runs. I think that suffices as speed work for runners at distances of 5 k and longer during cross country season. Yes, when I have worked with a runner like Bradley Harkrader, or this year Anguel Tolev, I ask them to work on speed a bit more, say they should run 4-6 x 150 m on a slight downhill with a 3 minute jog between each. The 150s are run accelerating to close to top speed for 50 m, maintain top speed for 50 m, they relax and maintain form with less effort the last 50. The hills make the speed faster. This is neuro-muscular training. The muscles need to "know" how to go fast.

I work with mostly runners who are over 30. However, I have been asked to assist with some HS runners, one girls team and a handful of boys from schools attended by children of the older runners I work with. In Colorado, where I live, there are no dual meets during cross country, everything is an invitational. The season starts the last week of August or the first week of September. With a combination of kids who ran all summer up to 80 miles per week, and kids who are lacing up running shoes for the first time in August, I try to allow for both levels with a goal of having everyone on almost the same training by late September. At that point there is only 3 weeks to Regional Championships. To go to state a runner has to be in the top 15, a team has to be in the top 40% of the full teams to complete the regional race typically there are 12 teams in a region, so top 4 teams go to state. The region the girls team is in also has Rocky Mtn HS and Fort Collins HS both ranked nationally or at least regionally. So the early program is two fold, those who have been running continue to run 1 hr a day during the week, 10 miler one day and long run the other on the weekend. The "newbies" are stressed to develop to thepoint where they can cover 40-50 minutes each day. These are total workout times. Include warm-up and cool-down, but not standing around or stretching time. If they are doing 3 x 1 mile with 2 minutes recovery, some girls that is 3/4s of the workout time, then so be it. Fun is a key ingredient. Fitness and work need to be fun, otherwise they'll all would prefer sitting on the bench at the volleyball games.

Tapering starts with October 1. First the long run and 10 milers are cut back to 40-50 minutes. Then efforts and mileage are cut back during the week. After all they have basically 8 weeks to go from non-running to hopefully qualifying for the state meet. Endurance is the key factor that needs to be developed. So the emphasis is on that. This year Allison Gohl went from 19:36 at state last year to hopefully 18:15 or faster. She has run 18:57 twice, both seconds, once a loss by less than 10 seconds to a gal who has run 17:45 on one of the faster courses in the state, the other beating the defending state champ by over 10 seconds but loosing to a freshman in another classification by over a minute. Regionals are tomorrow, I expect her to run low 18s. Others on the team from last year are 60-90 seconds faster than last year. But the team looks like 6th in the Region (numbers 4&5 are running just under 24:00) unless there is some "inspired" running.

Anguel has the 4th fastest time in the state for his classification. But he has run every week of the season off of 60-75 mile weeks. This week is the first time he will be racing with less than 50 miles in his legs. He should win. I'd rather see him pull that off next Saturday at the state meet. Then he and Allison will likely be training by themselves as they prepare to go to the Footlocker Regional meet the Saturday of Thanksgiving.

Hope that helps, if not let me know.

Glenn

Glenn and HRE have basically answered the question. I have to say I am enjoying all this input from everyone !,

Rich is correct about the hill work. I have stuck in my mind (where from I don't know) that hill work is done 2 X per week and also a Timetrial.

I know that Arthur's later schedules differed from the early ones and I may have said this before, I can remember some of "Arthur's Boys" saying they did not know why he published "long schedules" as in "Run to the Top" when he trained them on "shorter" schedules, very similar to what he wrote in the late 70's on. I nknow some of them asked him why, I cannot recall the answer but it must have been satisfactory.

Glenn,

I am a masters runner and would be very interested in your outline of training phases in regard to cross country. My main races (peak) would be in late Nov/ early Dec. Base phase would start in July.

Thanks again

ronin wrote:

This last response of Nobby had inspired me to post again (even though I am following this thread meticulously) after a long layoff.

Let's suppose I'am through with my conditioning phase, and now I am in the 6 weeks long hill conditioning/anaerobic introduction phase. How can I keep my (now) very good Anaerobic threshold, when no tempo-type pace is done? I mean, if you stay out from threshold runs for 6 weeks, it will for sure show up on your state of preparedness. Isn't it true? That's one of the important traits of Daniel's system- T pace is being done even in the late peaking phase.

What is your stance on effect on LT for 5k-10k runners in this 2nd phase?

Ronin,

I'm pretty much in the exact hypothetical place you suggest, but I'm mid-way through my second week of four in the hill phase. If you are on a pretty good hill, and working three or four times up it (for 3 minutes or so on the up), you will definitely feel the effort. The heart rate goes up, and the exertion of bringing the knees through and up combine to make a very strong (but still aerobic) workout, which feels pretty close to a "tempo-type" pace in the lungs and legs. I personally feel that doing this three times a week at 10-15 minutes of effort a session would maintain your state of preparedness. Just an opinion from someone "in the trenches" at this point.

I'll be glad to do that. One question, what distances do you compete at? What is the distance of your "key" competitions? The answers can have an impact on the detail of the plan, but not the general flow.

Glenn

Damn, this is a great thread. I'm just gonna sit back and STFU for a while, and learn some more.

And bump! :)

Glenn McCarthy wrote:

I'll be glad to do that. One question, what distances do you compete at? What is the distance of your "key" competitions? The answers can have an impact on the detail of the plan, but not the general flow.

Glenn

This was meant for oasis. Forgot to mention that part. Mia culpa.

Glenn

Glenn,

Races are 8k XC

Another bump another 100 mpw @ sub 6 min. pace?

Ronin:

I know what exactly (well, sorta) "anaerobic threshold" means but I personally would prefer to consider what we really try to develop/improve during the marathon conditioning of the Lydiard method is "aerobic threshold". Lorraine claims that she "invented" this term but oh, well...anyways. We are trying to bring this VO2Max or maximum steady state or whatever else you want to call it. Basically, by the end of the conditioning phase, you want to be running at very high end of aerobic state; meaning you should be running faster per mile than what you started to run this phase and still be aerobic (no huffing and puffing). You should get there naturally, not by pushing. I think Mike S expressed this beautifully in his blog. When you move on to the next phase which is hill training, you should be "adding" power and flexibility in your strides onto what you've just built up. I can't remember if I posted this somewhere or if I just simply suggested this to someone but if you try to follow the "new" Lydiard hill training (bounding and springing) and perhaps using shorter hill; you'd better make sure you are keeping up a good aerobic maintenance by going for a long run a couple of times a week; instead of what Lydiard himself might have suggested which is something like 3 times a week of hill training and 3 times a week of sprint training. Again, Lydiard's original runners were running somewhere around 12~14 miles for each hill training session including windsprints and fast downhill running. They didn't need to add anything else any more. That is more than plenty and, if you are missing any of these elements, you need to somehow include it; be it tempo run or strides or distance work or whatever. It all depends on what kind of hill training you perform during this phase.

Now there's another way to look at it. Suppose you just did all the distance work fairly easy (because you're still a beginner or a young developing athlete or whatever the reason) and using hill training strictly as a transition. Now, because of all the mileage you've done, you should be fairly fit--perhaps not the ultimate form as Lydiard would like to see, but fair state. You did not do much tempo runs, no steady state intervals, no fast stuff whatsoever. And you need to prepare yourself to do faster stuff that comes after the hill phase. Should you include tempo runs or long intervals? You can if you want. But here I totally agree with Glenn. Hill training is speed training in disguise. Even if you're not necessarily running fast, you are still working on pretty much everything you need to be able to run fast. So why try to prove yourself that you actually can run fast at this still very early stage? That time will come so guard your performance till later. You are still building all the blocks at this point and strengthening all those blocks. Don't try to mix everything at one time. You cannot build a brick wall at once. You'll have to pile them all up from the bottom layer to the top; one by one. Think of all the elements as each bricks. Each day's training is to do what you can do on that day and that should lead you to do something extra in the following days/weeks/months. You don't need to do what you want to be doing at your peak today. That day will come later.

I would like to share a couple of stories. I had lunch with Lorraine Moller and Rod Dixon in LA a couple of days ago. And by the way, Larry King was sitting the table next to us. Anyways, we were talking about the Lydiard training. We were saying how people just can't uderstand the trick of running by feel and instead they just want numbers; be it % of HRM or X seconds slower or faster than whatever your race pace, etc. We all agreed that perhaps Arthur's effort system with 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4 effort is the best way to go by. Rod said, "Someone asked me what the heck is a 1/4 effort. I told him, 'Well, you know your full effort. Okay, devide that into four...'" By this point we were just laughing so hard.

Now, we are all prejudiced. We think Lydiard training is pretty nice way to train. We may be just a complete idiot or we don't know just what the heck we're talking about... I showed this thread to Lorraine and, sorry some of the guys who think the Lydiardism is an old fashion no-good-for-today's-modern-track-world, she said, "Has anybody come up with a better wheel?" Well, some thread pattern maybe, but it's still round, isn't it?

Thanks all- Glenn, Nobby, HRE, Kim, salkowskim- for answering.

Now, I want to let you know that I understand what hill running (springing, bounding...) do for me, and I also do quite a nice volume of it (around 10miles with wu, cd and sprints, plus morning 6miler), but... Even though I am springing for 3 minutes up the hill, I am not stimulating aerobic (and anaerobic) threshold much. It's more like a hard 1000-1200m run with a lot of soreness included. To me, anaerobic threshold means 1/2M pace, or pace I can hold for around 1:03-1:05. Without having stimulated it, it would deteriorate in my opinion. Then, when the anaerobic conditioning phase comes, there is not time and energy for LT runs or strong aerobic runs of about 1h. There is either a day for easy recovery run or a long run, outside of hard repeats. Then comes the coordination, where LT is not stimulated much either, except for the hard time trials, if they are longer.

So, when my race day- over 10000m- comes, I have great endurance, (hopefully) good anaerobic conditioning, but I am out of LT pace running for 16 weeks (if the hill phase was 6 weeks long).

Everybody would probably agree that to run a very competitive 10k you have to have a superb LT, endurance (that is a condition sine qua non) and fair amount of anaerobic conditioning behind you. The LT is the decisive factor... Now this might be question for physiology freaks (no insult, please): How long would my Aerobic threshold and anaerobic threshold stay at the same level, or improve, if it is not touched much for 14-16 weeks?

Sorry for the long question and for making it too personal, but I feel that an answer to this might clear the distinct differences between various training philosophies. Thanks.

ronin,

if you think that the LT runs are that important to your training, then simply do one of those instead of something else. But replace a hard day, not a recovery day. Do the hills, all 4 weeks. Then during your anaerobic phase, drop out an anerobic workout or time-trial or whatever else and replace it with your LT run. Then you will keep it in your training.

I think this gets back to what we have been saying about understanding the principles. This is also what I call the "art" part of coaching. To know that today YOU need an LT run while a person training along side of you may need a 2 mile time-trial to stimulate a weakness observed in a race or time-trial. But that is the however success happens. You start with a plan and you modify it to all for maximum development.

Wetmore at CU uses strong aerobic runs a lot, which is similar to at LT run. He also drops any type of hill work entirely. Yet you have to admit he has good success.

Glenn

Ronin:

I second Glenn. You seem to know what you need so you should simply coordiante your training accordingly. Don't just follow a schedule, any schedule, blindly. If you know what you need, simply include that. There was a period when i know I needed more hill exercise. I included one day of hill training throughout the marathon conditioning phase. Why not?

Now I don't know how long it takes for your LT system to deteriorate but I feel the question is rather "how long does it take to develop LT system to fullest?" If it takes 10 weeks (I don't know), then you start developing it 10 weeks before your important competition. Or else, why do you have to do that throughout the year unless you want to race year-round? Is it a bad thing that your LT is "not touched" for a certain period of time? If it is, by all mean, include that year-round. With those things, everybody's different. I'm sure Lydiard would not object if the athlete go crazy if they don't ANY intervals at all for more than 3 months to include some intervals every 2 months. Regardless of what's (supposedly) best physiological theory, the idea is certainly not to go crazy. The idea is to develop you as an athlete in a holistic way. Why 4 weeks of anaerobic development phast when you come just right after 3 weeks and tend to go downhill after that? Or if you just can't get it right even after 5 weeks. It it takes longer than 6 weeks, by all mean, you need to structure your schedule accordingly.

Any training schedule is nothing but a guide whoever wrote it.

Mostly this will second what's already been written. Are you looking to be race ready most of the year or are you working to a single peak? It looks to me like the former is true in your case. If so, you might want to put together a program that incorporates the various elements for most of the year (I'd still have a "down" period where you concentrated on base building.) But you could work out a schedule where you have a hill session, a threshold run, a time trial or race, an interval session, and long runs consistently included. You wouldn't likely do all of them in a week, but could rotate them through, perhaps emphasizing one more regularly than others at the appropriate time.

Once again a second to the others.

When I ran with Bill Baillie in the late 60's early seventies, he would 'race' everything from club races to regional races.

He would adjust according to what 'season' it was.

ie : if it was Cross Country he would do more work on grass and some of the Hilly courses.

If it was track he ran 5k time trials and 'loved' workouts like 6 to 8 X 200.

Also : If it was a club race he still ran it hard but would probabaly enter it into his diary as the equivalent to a Time trial.

However, every week, week in week out, month in month out.

He ran his long runs every Sunday (20 miles plus). Usually with a big group of us.

During the week he had lots of steady runs as well.

I know in 1969 throughout that winter I ran 6 miles with hin every lunch time in the Auckland Domain. All were steady runs. After work he would do something specific that suited him.

Every Tuesday / Thursday I ran another steady 6 miles.

Our "faster" workouts then would include the Club races at Lyynndale or Regional racs every second week.

During Club "pack" runs on the weekend we would never be out for anything less than an hour.

Bill was a master at balancing the work to suit what he wanted to do.

Another point : As HRE and Nobby have already pointed out,

The "famous" guys in Arthur's squad all trained slightly differently. EG : Barry Magee would run more Aerobic "strong" runs and less Interval work than Bill and would run his Waiatarua's at a slower more pace than Jeff Julian.(Most of the guys did !!)

Each to his own !.

Kim:

Always enjoy your insight. One of the problems is that people look at numbers waaaaaaaaay too much. Forget 100 miles; forget 10 weeks; forget 4 or 6 weeks (hill); forget 20X400 or 18X400 or whatever. Lydiard laid out numbers for general audience as a guide. We still have to use what we've got between our ears. Lorraine and I have been working on Part II of the Lydiard presentation; "Applicaton of the Lydiard Program". In it, we termed "Bare Bone of the Lydiard System"; which is basically the principle of the program without numbers. Think of what we need to develop first, second, third and so on. Think of how we can achieve it, not by number, but by "reasons". Once you understand that, applying the Lydiard program to the US high school/college system is no problem.

By the way, Kim, Lorraine showed a video of Peter Snell to Tom Osborne. Now he understands why long runs are necessary for 800m runner! He's ready to fly down to TX to actually meet the man.

Thanks Nobby, Tom is a phenomenal talent and if we can get a years consistent work behind him (which is happening !) he will fly.

I am so glad you have "chucked" the numbers out. One thing I feel I learned was not "miles per week" but consistency of miles over weeks and years.

I believe I tried to address that early in the thread when I talked about my "fastest" longer run and how it took 4 years to get to the level of "Fitness" where I could run that far and that easily.

When people ask about what "Arthur's Boys" did to win medals they always look at what the guys did say the year leading into the event.

What they don't look at is the years and years of running done prior to that. I am thinking of Halberg,Magee and Baillie in particular.

Bill and Murray ran the Empire games 880 and Mile in 1954.

Bill was 4th !!!!. Pretty good for a guy who was really a 5 /10 k runner !!!!!!

Barry also was already training consistently then.

They did not really run at the "top of the world" until a few years later. In Bill's case, 10 years later.

There was a hell of a lot of miles run to get there.