Alex Hutchinson calls out CANOVA over study confirming EPO works on Kenyan runners

So why are you so obsessed with me?

Why are you fascinated with changing the world via a message board instead of getting out there and actually doing something?

I explain when I don't believe in the effects of EPO as PED, looking at what I can see in practice.

I give you the example of 3 athletes of my Group, in proper training for long distances from one year only.

ERIC KIPTANUI :

he was a specialist of 1500m (born in 1990) with best results of 3'37"73 in 2016 and 3'38"4 in 2017.

We (myself and my assistant coach John Litei) recruited him in our camp (that started in April 2017 only) for helping in training Ronald Kwemoi, probably the most talented athlete for 1500m together with Elijah Manangoi and Timothy Cheruiyot.

For this reason, the preparation of Erick, till half of July 2017, was in direction of 1500m.

In Monaco, during the race, Ronald had a stress fracture, that stopped his activity for more than one year (he resumed training from June of this year only, and has still to compete this year. His next race will be an easy 5000m in Japan this week).

Without Ronald, and already at the end of the track season, we needed to find some competition for him, and the only races were on road.

So, Erick went Nederland for two easy races of 10 km, winning both with not important times (28'51" and 28'47"), in October, and after that we continued to have more long run, using sometimes fast pace with variations of speed.

In November I planned a workout of 7 times 3 km in about 9' alternated with 1 km in 3'30" - 3'20" for Sondre Moen, one of the last workouts before the Marathon of Fukuoka, and nobody among the athletes of my Group was ready to work with him, for different reasons.

The only one free was Erick, and I asked him to go for 19 km with Sondre (5 times 3 km with 1 km recovery), the longest training till that moment.

Erick didn't run in 9', but in 8'45", and I asked him to recovery more slow, in order to start every new 3 km together with Sondre. With my surprise, he arrived till 24 km, and I stopped him only before the last 3 km of Sondre.

After this training, I asked him his feeling, and he told me "I don't do too much fatigue, and mentally I don't fear the distance : I like running long and fast".

So, I prepared a new plan looking at longer distances.

On 31 December, Nike wanted one athlete on the podium in the 10 km of Madrid : I sent him there, and he dominated in 27'34".

After that race, I asked the management to put him in the HM of Lisbon (the same of the WR of Zersenay Tadese), on 11 March. The conditions were terrible, but in the race there were 7 athletes with PB under 1 hour : Tadese WR holder (58'23"), Atsede Tsegay (58'47"), Sammy Kitwara (58'48"), James Wangari (59'07"), Samuel Tsegay (59'21"), Morris Munene (59'38") and Edwin Koech (59'54"). Erick remained in the Group till 20 km, and in the last km gave 11" to the second, winning very easily with a very fast final (60'05" against 60'16" for the Eritrean Gebregergish and 60'17" for Munene).

However, I was not satisfied about the chronometric result, because at the end of the season, in the final lists, there is not written "60'05" with terrible conditions", so I asked the management for another race in order to run around 59'. We chose Berlin on 8th April, organizing a fast pace with another athlete of our Group, Daniel Kipchumba.

Paced by Daniel till 12 km, Erick went for 13'32" the first 5 km, 27'32" at 10 km, 41'38" at 15 km and 55'43" at 20 km, finishing in 58'42", best seasonal performance and 4th all time in HM.

This with less than 6 months of specific training (of course, without using anything, like ALL the athletes in our camp).

DANIEL KIPCHUMBA :

he was a junior of average level (born in 1997), starting in a camp in Kaptagat built by a German Christian Fundation that supports Young students of the area who want to run.

The event of Daniel was 3000m steeple. In 2015 he ran in 8'55"6, in 2016 (his last year as Junior) in 8'37"9, in 2017 (he joined the camp in June only) in 8'30", and tried a 10000m finishing in 29'29".

After that period, I explained him that his future was in longer distances, and he changed mind, only asking me the permission to try steeple again this year in February during Trials for Commonwealt Games. Without any specific training of speed, he ran in 8'32"37, and that was his last competition on track.

Being the pacer of Erick in Berlin on 8th April, we planned for him a full HM the next week.

In Berlin, I was surprised by his performance : Always in front with splits of 13'32" and 27'32", better than what I supposed. His pacing allowed me to discover his "agonistic" attitude : he is able in the competition to give 100% of his value, and is very smart under tactical point of view.

So, the next week he was in Verbania (Italy), and won his first HM running immediately in 59'06" (and is another athlete never using anything).

For many Kenyans, running fast one time is not a problem, but to repeat the time is not easy, because there are not clear strategies, but casuality. This is not the way we work : we need to know several months before when and where there is the competition, and the training plan looks at the best shape for that event. The athletes, in the activity of today, can run well and earn good money only if they know when they have the competition, and are prepared at their best. If this doesn't happen, they can't compete.

Therefore, already in May we planned to run in Copenhagen, together with Erick. But Erick had an injury running on a muddy road, so last week Daniel was the one looking for the best position.

Paced by another athlete of our Group (Noah Kipkemboi) for the first 10 km, Daniel ran perfectly under tactical point of view, remaining in the leading Group using Always an even pace, and moved at 20 km with "one shot only" : the time of his final 1100m was 2'59" (at 2'42" pace), and was enough for winning again repeating the same time of Verbania (59'06").

All this with an athlete of "average level", in one year time.

JOSPHAT BOIT :

Born in 1995, he had his first competition last year in Nakuru (5th and 6th of May), running 5000m in 14'25"4 (heats the first day) and in 14'24"8 (final the following day). He joined our camp in June only, and practically started training for the first time in systematic way.

Also if he liked run on track (during Kenyan Trials for Commonwealth ran 5000m in 13'39"), I started to coach him immediately looking at longest distances.

His first real competition was the same HM of Daniel in Verbania (15th April). He was very aggressive, attacking several times, but at the end paid this tactic, losing 13" by Daniel in the last km.

However, his time was 59'19", very good for an athlete in training from short time.

On 2nd June, he went Valencia for running 15 km. He went immediately in front, without any pacer, running his first 5 km in 13'32", going at 10 km in 27'40" for finishing in 42'02", winning without any aid from other athletes.

After this, we planned to pace Eliud in his attempt against the WR in Berlin Marathon. There, he had to run faster than the plan because Eliud pushed the pace, but was able to pace alone for more than 10 km (from 15 km to 25.5 km). So, we can say that now he can run at the same pace of his first competition of 5000m of 15 months ago, FOR 6 TIMES WITHOUT RECOVERY (30 km at the same pace of 5 km, in 15 months of training).

This is what athletes of good talent can achieve with training only. And this is also the reason because I DON'T BELIEVE IN THE EFFECTS OF DOPING IF THE TRAINING IS IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION (like for example in the case of Eliud).

Physiologists, scientists, researchers, posters of LR, everybody can have his idea. But who knows what is possible to do with training only (and I'm not the only one), absolutely has to refuse percentages of improvement that are totally out of every logic, when the training has continuity and gives the right stimulus to the body for changing physiological parameters, at the base of every improvement in the performances.

physics defiant wrote:

Why are you fascinated with changing the world via a message board instead of getting out there and actually doing something?

What do you suggest? I think any approach is better than none. This is a good place for everyone to vent their frustrations. Many here are too emotionally involved in the issue, which affects their judgement of a way forward.

Anti doping enforcement just make the issue worse because it reinforces the belief in doping efficacy.

How do I get these points across to people who have been force fed a diet of misinformation about how the human body works? Especially if no-one seems to care?

I find the questions people ask me here are often quite challenging and if I can't give them an adequate answer, then I have to try harder. Nothing is going to change quickly in this issue is it?

A degree (several actually) and a platform to launch from.

You last sentence says it all. They are challenging only because you don't really have a clue. Certainly nothing will change with your glacially slow learning ability,

I don't think I've even seen a person interested in something and be so darn awful at it except possibly for a few golfers. So yes, try harder.

No, everything I'm saying is basic physiology. If you choose to remain ignorant that's up to you.

What you can't seem to understand is that real sports science has to stand up to scrutiny in physics, chemistry and biology, not just tunnel vision pseudoscience, which is what you want to believe.

Renato has been subjected to these jealous and childish accusations from those who run this site ever since he started postig here 15 years ago. Stop that, grow up, educate yourselves. Otherwise...

JonO. wrote:

No, everything I'm saying is basic physiology. If you choose to remain ignorant that's up to you.

What you can't seem to understand is that real sports science has to stand up to scrutiny in physics, chemistry and biology, not just tunnel vision pseudoscience, which is what you want to believe.

Renato has been subjected to these jealous and childish accusations from those who run this site ever since he started postig here 15 years ago. Stop that, grow up, educate yourselves. Otherwise...

See? You are incapable of learning. There's your trouble.

Sports Science is scrutinized endlessly. That's why people want drugs out. Because they know the stuff works.

Educated people constantly tell you that you are wrong but you think you somehow know more. It's quite sad.

JonO is a case study in the Dunning–Kruger effect.

Prognosis negative wrote:

JonO is a case study in the Dunning–Kruger effect.

Incredibly accurate assessment. But of course he knows more about that than you.

We need an intertreter for Renato

So are trying to tell us you took a 3:37/38 training partner bunny, who in October he could 'only' do 28:50, by the end of December he'd improved to 27:34 but by April he could go through 10km during a half in 27:32 and run 58:42 (at least 2:04 shape). When we've just seen Kejelcha, who has the best of whatever Salazar & Nike HQ has as well as whatever Ethiopia has, run 59:19 literally days after running 12:46 and nearly beating Manangoi. And we've recently seen Mo run 59.26 and he looked in better shape than last year when he was almost unbeatable. Pardon my disbelief.

as expected wrote:

JonO. wrote:

No, everything I'm saying is basic physiology. If you choose to remain ignorant that's up to you.

What you can't seem to understand is that real sports science has to stand up to scrutiny in physics, chemistry and biology, not just tunnel vision pseudoscience, which is what you want to believe.

Renato has been subjected to these jealous and childish accusations from those who run this site ever since he started postig here 15 years ago. Stop that, grow up, educate yourselves. Otherwise...

See? You are incapable of learning. There's your trouble.

Sports Science is scrutinized endlessly. That's why people want drugs out. Because they know the stuff works.

Educated people constantly tell you that you are wrong but you think you somehow know more. It's quite sad.

No, you're completely wrong. If you had any idea about this stuff you would put forward a cogent argument.

You can't because you have no real interest in the subject. The fact that people here think they know more about how to train Kenyan runners than Renato Canova is idicative of the delusion on these boards.

My point stands, you can't re write the laws of physics. And since you have no clue about what I'm saying; that we need a realistic bioenergetics/biomechanics model, you really shouldn't be arguing with me or anyone on the subject.

JonO. wrote:

as expected wrote:

See? You are incapable of learning. There's your trouble.

Sports Science is scrutinized endlessly. That's why people want drugs out. Because they know the stuff works.

Educated people constantly tell you that you are wrong but you think you somehow know more. It's quite sad.

No, you're completely wrong. If you had any idea about this stuff you would put forward a cogent argument.

You can't because you have no real interest in the subject. The fact that people here think they know more about how to train Kenyan runners than Renato Canova is idicative of the delusion on these boards.

My point stands, you can't re write the laws of physics. And since you have no clue about what I'm saying; that we need a realistic bioenergetics/biomechanics model, you really shouldn't be arguing with me or anyone on the subject.

Dunning-Kruger, bro.

JonO. wrote:

No, you're completely wrong. If you had any idea about this stuff you would put forward a cogent argument.

My point stands, you can't re write the laws of physics.

That is hilarious, to combine these statements in one post.

If you were serious and convinced that PEDs can't work because of Newton after working on this for 15 years, you'd have finalized your results by now and published them in Nature. Paradigm changing! Nobel prize!!

Instead, you keep trolling on letsrun instead of touring through universities and conferences and news shows.

It's basic physiology. Thermoregulation, homeostasis look it up.

Continually arguing from a point of ignorance is trolling. And that's what you are doing.

To read some of these posts where people actually try to ridicule me for pointing out basic biomechanics points out how deluded you people are.

You actually believe you can invent your own physiology.

rojo has always been jealous of Renato, it's obvious. These pathetic, cowardly spineless attacks are typical letsrun fare. If you have no shame about how you go about your business and just want to abuse people anonymously, you can expect somewhere along the line someone will expose you for what you are.

Dunning-Kruger, bro. Basic psychiatry.

JonO. wrote:

It's basic physiology. Thermoregulation, homeostasis look it up.

Continually arguing from a point of ignorance is trolling. And that's what you are doing.

To read some of these posts where people actually try to ridicule me for pointing out basic biomechanics points out how deluded you people are.

You actually believe you can invent your own physiology.

rojo has always been jealous of Renato, it's obvious. These pathetic, cowardly spineless attacks are typical letsrun fare. If you have no shame about how you go about your business and just want to abuse people anonymously, you can expect somewhere along the line someone will expose you for what you are.

thats a serious LOLz!!!

im pretty sure the brojos defend him to the end! i was banned once for mocking his name, so yeah im pretty sure the brojos are far from jealous. but i will agree they are cowards. they will hassled NOP to no f*cking end, but they have no balls what soever to get tough with renato and rosa....you would think if they were jealous they would be walking a hard line on those two and kenyan doping.....

JonO. wrote:

It's basic physiology. Thermoregulation, homeostasis look it up.

Continually arguing from a point of ignorance is trolling. And that's what you are doing.

To read some of these posts where people actually try to ridicule me for pointing out basic biomechanics points out how deluded you people are.

You actually believe you can invent your own physiology.

rojo has always been jealous of Renato, it's obvious. These pathetic, cowardly spineless attacks are typical letsrun fare. If you have no shame about how you go about your business and just want to abuse people anonymously, you can expect somewhere along the line someone will expose you for what you are.

I'll play.. Show your formula that shows spontaneous combustion of the organism due to burning more energy.

Have you ever done this? Can you?

I've seen lots of "figure it out yourself" which tells me you're trying to get someone to figure it out for you and hope it fits your theory.

No, I'm not trying to explain. I EXPLAIN what we do, what the guys did, and where it's possible to arrive with training only.

The most part of people create LIMITS in their mind, for two reasons :

1) They don't have a real knowledge about the training of the best athletes, so speak forgetting THE MOST IMPORTANT CAUSE OF EVERY PERFORMANCE (of course, after the personal talent)

2) Connected with the above reason, they OVERRATE the effects of EPO doping on every performance. While the effects of steroids on the performances are evident, looking at the history of athletics (no WR after 1988 in throwing and almost nothing in jumping, and nothing for women in any event, apart long distances), THERE IS NO EVIDENCE that doping is at the base of the best performances in the endurance events.

Yes, some of the top athletes were caught. However, apart Ruth Jebet, no one of them was a WR holder, and the percentage of doped athletes in top 100 all-time is very low, in Marathon practically 2% (Goumri for the Biological Passport and Erupe for EPO). And, if you want to be honest, Erupe ran his best Marathon AFTER coming back from the ban, so in this case the Amazing effect of EPO on the performance never existed, and he is a good testimonial for the demonstration that the advantage of EPO for Marathon is practically nothing (the same if we look at the PB of Mathew Kisorio, achieved AFTER the ban).

You are surspired because in few month an athlete running 3'37" can run the best time in the world in HM. But in the past I had something still more impressive : Nicholas Kemboi, with less than 3 months of training in Davos and Saint Moritz in 2003, always with me and a Group including the Young Moses Mosop, James Kwalia, Augustine Choge, Stephen Cherono (not yet Shaheen) and Dorcus Inzikuru, moved from 13'26" to 13'01", and from 28'19" to 26'30"03, almost defeating Haile Gebrselassie in Bruxelles. And I can put my hands on fire about that period, because we lived all together in the same apartment, and their doping was Ugali and milk....

I consider all the "scientific researches" described in this thread as interesting attempts to connect doping with the parameters generally used as physiological base for every endurance performance, that CAN'T give any help to coaches believing in training only.

NEVER physiologists had the will and the idea to do researches about THE TRAINING of the top runners. I liked the idea to have in Kenya some physiologist, coming for studying the effect of training of the best athletes, for a period of 4-6 months, with open mind, and with the humility to try to understand what really happens in the body, WITHOUT THINKING THEY HAVE ALREADY THE EXPLANATION OF THE MODIFICATIONS AT THE BASE OF EVERY PERFORMANCE.

They need to study TRAINING before studying DOPING. If they don't know the effects of the first, never can quantify the effects of the second.